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Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

The home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
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This is the home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
onthemove
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Re: Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

#461555

Postby onthemove » November 28th, 2021, 11:13 am

Mike4 wrote:Firstly, YOU wearing a mask is to protect ME from YOUR germs, not the other way around. I wear my mask to protect YOU so I'd be obliged if you'll reciprocate and wear yours in crowded public places please.


Can any of the posters throwing about this argument - or giving thumbs up to those throwing about this argument - please point to any similar insistences they were making for the flu or common cold?

Where was this idea that we must wear masks to protect others when the flu was going round?

Where was this idea when we were all getting colds?

I don't recall any of you making this argument back then, yet both flu and cold are INFECTIOUS and can and do kill people every year.

This message is just being pumped out by the behavioural psychologist in order to manipulate the masses, and I find it rather hypocritical of people who parrot this message in some holier than though manner, when they weren't making the same arguments for the cold or flu.

Mike4 wrote:Firstly, YOU wearing a mask is to protect ME from YOUR germs, not the other way around. ... I can see from your posts you don't care a jot about me or my welfare but that does not alter the function of mask wearing.


You can't catch covid over the internet, so how the hell is ME wearing a mask about protecting YOU?
(Just using your own capitalisations for the same emphasis).

Clearly your statement is nonsense - I am nowhere near you. Whether or not I wear a mask will make absolutely no difference to the risk of YOU catching covid from ME.

And this does illustrate a point that I've observed in reality - including with my mum who is an avid pro-mask wearer - those wearing masks act as though the mask is protecting them... they don't think twice about hovering around in close proximity to others.

I've mentioned this anecdote before, but I was with my mum in the supermarket a few months back... we were heading to an aisle a few aisles along, but there was a groupd of 3 or 4 people heading our way.... my mum just brushed right past them, really close up, whereas I dodged into a nearer aisle to give them space to pass, before I then moved back out of that aisle to reach the aisle we were aiming for.... when we got there, mum asked where I'd been ... I said giving those people space... she said, that oh she didn't need to because she was wearing a mask.

Masks are not 100% effective. In the majority of cases, the behaviour of those wearing the mask is most likely offsetting any benefit.

Anyway back to the point...

I'm getting sick and tired of people like you telling me that I'm being reckless or not being concerned for your safety just because I don't wish to wear a mask.

Well, notwithstanding the fact there's a bloomin great internet physically separating us, but let's imagine we were to encounter each other in the supermarket.

One thing I can tell you, is that I will be the one giving you more space - including choosing to go to a different emptier aisle while you finish what you want in the aisle you're in.

So I hope you can understand why I'm getting sick and tired of these blindered, tunnel vision comments that somehow people who don't wear masks are being selfish.

Nonsense - masks are only relevant if you come into close proximity. In fact the government consider close proximity less than 2m for something like 15 minutes.

I can assure you, that at no time when I'm in the supermarket am I ever that close to anyone for that amount of time.

So I would appreciate it if you would stop with the personal attacks claiming that I don't care for others just because I would prefer not to wear a mask.

Personally I prefer to keep a distance from people (pandemic or not).

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Re: Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

#461559

Postby Mike4 » November 28th, 2021, 11:31 am

Midsmartin wrote:Wearing a mask in a shop is utterly painless and easy.


Well this seems to be the nub of this thread. Most of us posting seem to agree with you but not the OP. She or hhe disagrees with you and says they finds it a major problem but for unspecified reasons.

I asked them a few posts back in what way they find mask-wearing so difficult, but no response so far. Probably they have not been back to this thread since I asked.

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Re: Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

#461569

Postby doolally » November 28th, 2021, 11:55 am

onthemove wrote:Can any of the posters throwing about this argument - or giving thumbs up to those throwing about this argument - please point to any similar insistences they were making for the flu or common cold?

Where was this idea that we must wear masks to protect others when the flu was going round?

Where was this idea when we were all getting colds?

I don't recall any of you making this argument back then, yet both flu and cold are INFECTIOUS and can and do kill people every year

I think flu and the common cold have been around for so long that we have a pretty good understanding of the risks, and appropriate treatment. Covid is far less understood, though well-enough understood that the risks and consequences appear to to be very much greater. Given time, I am sure that we will handle Covid in a similar manner to flu
onthemove wrote:
Mike4 wrote:Firstly, YOU wearing a mask is to protect ME from YOUR germs, not the other way around. ... I can see from your posts you don't care a jot about me or my welfare but that does not alter the function of mask wearing.


You can't catch covid over the internet, so how the hell is ME wearing a mask about protecting YOU?
(Just using your own capitalisations for the same emphasis).

Clearly your statement is nonsense - I am nowhere near you. Whether or not I wear a mask will make absolutely no difference to the risk of YOU catching covid from ME.

You do yourself a disservice by making such a comment. Mike4's comment was clearly not specifically about YOU or HIM. It's about ourselves and others

onthemove wrote:Masks are not 100% effective. In the majority of cases, the behaviour of those wearing the mask is most likely offsetting any benefit.

But they are more than 0% effective, Every little helps (especially when shopping in Tesco)
I agree that some believe that wearing a mask makes them bullet-proof. But it can also be argued that if the government does not require us to wear a mask, then some people interpret that as meaning that Covid is not a problem. Idiots will be idiots.

onthemove wrote:One thing I can tell you, is that I will be the one giving you more space - including choosing to go to a different emptier aisle while you finish what you want in the aisle you're in.

So I hope you can understand why I'm getting sick and tired of these blindered, tunnel vision comments that somehow people who don't wear masks are being selfish.

And that's very commendable. And commonsense. I follow a similar process, an d make sure I do my shopping early before the shops become busy. The problem is that the government has to cater for those with rather less commonsense. Regardless of government rules and mandates, I always wear a mask in enclosed spaces and crowded outdoor places (which I avoid if at all possible)

onthemove wrote:Personally I prefer to keep a distance from people (pandemic or not).

And that's great. If only others would be so thoughtful

I do get the feeling that your problem is not wearing a mask, but the principle of the government requiring you to. Perhaps we should also get rid of speed limits on roads, because we can all decide what is a sensible speed.

doolally

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Re: Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

#461575

Postby Mike4 » November 28th, 2021, 12:07 pm

onthemove wrote:
Mike4 wrote:Firstly, YOU wearing a mask is to protect ME from YOUR germs, not the other way around. ... I can see from your posts you don't care a jot about me or my welfare but that does not alter the function of mask wearing.


You can't catch covid over the internet, so how the hell is ME wearing a mask about protecting YOU?
(Just using your own capitalisations for the same emphasis).

Clearly your statement is nonsense - I am nowhere near you. Whether or not I wear a mask will make absolutely no difference to the risk of YOU catching covid from ME.


You are doing your own credibility no good at all. Obviously I was writing about the collective 'you' and 'me' but you choose to deliberately misinterpret simply to suit yourself.

Anyway by your own argument this is the internet and you don't know where I am. So you could be wrong about the risk of us meeting and you infecting me. I might even in the house next door to you right now.

I notice you have not come up with any practical reason you object to wearing a mask. It all seems based on the childish attitude that "no-one tells ME what to do", a but like a stroppy teenager.

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Re: Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

#461580

Postby MrFoolish » November 28th, 2021, 12:17 pm

doolally wrote:I do get the feeling that your problem is not wearing a mask, but the principle of the government requiring you to. Perhaps we should also get rid of speed limits on roads, because we can all decide what is a sensible speed.

doolally


Well surely he has the right to express an opinion on the matter. We are supposed to live in a democracy with free speech, is that not so?

If they mandated mask wearing at home, would you not have something to say on the matter? It is all a matter of judgement and degree after all.

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Re: Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

#461583

Postby doolally » November 28th, 2021, 12:28 pm

MrFoolish wrote:
doolally wrote:I do get the feeling that your problem is not wearing a mask, but the principle of the government requiring you to. Perhaps we should also get rid of speed limits on roads, because we can all decide what is a sensible speed.

doolally


Well surely he has the right to express an opinion on the matter. We are supposed to live in a democracy with free speech, is that not so?

If they mandated mask wearing at home, would you not have something to say on the matter? It is all a matter of judgement and degree after all.

I totally agree. Though I disagree with his thoughts and the way he expresses those thoughts, he has every right to say what he thinks. As do I.

If required to wear a mask at home, I may well have some thoughts, but I would take the view that the government and the scientific advisers would not do such a thing on a total whim, so I would comply. It would cost me nothing, apart from a very mild inconvenience.

doolally

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Re: Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

#461584

Postby MrFoolish » November 28th, 2021, 12:33 pm

doolally wrote:If required to wear a mask at home, I may well have some thoughts, but I would take the view that the government and the scientific advisers would not do such a thing on a total whim, so I would comply. It would cost me nothing, apart from a very mild inconvenience.

doolally


This government seems to do lots of things on a total whim, or at least in pursuit of some very dubious motives, so good luck with that one.

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Re: Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

#461586

Postby richfool » November 28th, 2021, 12:36 pm

I am pleased that the Gov is asking people to wear masks again. I rather wish that it was mandatory, because there seem to be too many people that don't wear them, either because they don't care, or because they feel that it is in some way restricting their rights and freedoms (which is to me, a short-sighted and selfish view).

I am happy to help protect myself and others by wearing a mask, or anything else that the experts consider appropriate.

PS. Oh and Boris should be setting an example.

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Re: Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

#461589

Postby Midsmartin » November 28th, 2021, 12:43 pm

Incidentally, wearing a mask at home almost certainly has no benefit, due to very extended close contact.

To the observation that we don't fret so much about 'flu:

Well, maybe we should. If we collect data that masks in shops and concerts save lives or hospital beds, then maybe future flu outbreaks should bring on mask wearing. This has always been more common in the in Asia, in societies that care more about the common good and less about me-me-me.

My daughter had a friend from Hong Kong who was (before covid) mildly horrified that Brits didn't wear masks out and about when they had a cold, as a courtesy to others.

Although covid does seem worse than flu. Mortality has dropped hugely with vaccines of course.

Anecdotes don't make data, but my wife had just had 6 weeks off work with utter fatigue after covid. Happily she didn't need a hospital but might have without a vaccine. In very rare cases covid seems to cause organ damage, including neurological problems.

Even a 10-20% reduction in transmission could have a massive effect on the load on the health service.

And yes, Boris shouldn't be so stupid as to be seen on hospitals without a mask on.

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Re: Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

#461593

Postby onthemove » November 28th, 2021, 12:52 pm

Mike4 wrote:I notice you have not come up with any practical reason you object to wearing a mask.


Have I missed where you pointed me to your requests pre-panedmic for people to wear face masks to protect others against cold and flu?

Mike4 wrote:You are doing your own credibility no good at all. Obviously I was writing about the collective 'you' and 'me' but you choose to deliberately misinterpret simply to suit yourself.


I responded to what you actually wrote.

While it's true that "you" can be used as both plural and singular, "me" is firmly in the singular camp - there is no 'collective me'.
("A speaker or writer uses me to refer to himself or herself. Me is a first person singular pronoun. Me is used as the object of a verb or a preposition." https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/me )

You even used it in capitals to emphasize it!

And I stand by my point...

I was responding to your accusation...

Mike4 wrote:"I can see from your posts you don't care a jot about me or my welfare"


Yet...

  • I'm double jabbed (not eligible for the booster yet)
  • I've continued to work from home throughout
  • I keep my distance from others
  • I shop later in the evening when the supermarket is much quieter, and in a large very spacious supermarket
  • I haven't done my previously normal secondary shop in a smaller more local supermarket, where distancing isn't possible, since prior to the pandemic
  • I'm still cutting my own hair; haven't been to the hairdresser since Jan 2020
  • I've been putting off seeing my GP about a minor issue that really needs seeing to (over the phone won't fix it), both to avoid contact with others, and also to help keep pressure off the NHS

All of the above are behaviours and adaptions that lessen the risk of me catching covid, and lessen the risk of spreading covid to others - whether that be you or anyone else.

But hey ho, you've decided on the basis that I really object to wearing a mask in the supermarket that I apparently "don't care a jot about [you] or [your] welfare"

Do you really believe that that is a rational, calm conclusion you have drawn there? You really don't think that there is perhaps just the tiniest teeniest bit of hysteria creeping into your arrival at that conclusion? You don't think there's just the tiniest possibility you might have become swept up in the messaging being pumped out by the government's behavioural psychologists - messaging designed for the purpose of mass manipulation?

That you really, truly honestly believe that mask wearing is such an overriding factor, that all the other factors combined count for sweet FA, and permit you judge that I "don't care a jot about [you] or [your] welfare"

Can you honestly tell me that you really are so caring about others that your behaviour in terms of your covid spreading risk has at least matched or bettered mine overall, such that you really are in a position to pass such a judgement on me?

The majority of times that I do my supermarket shop, I haven't encountered anyone else in the prior week since my last supermarket shop. With working from home and living alone, I'm still effectively in isolation for 7 days prior to doing my shop. I'm far more likely to be the one catching covid from my weekly shop, than be the one spreading covid. (Mask or no mask)

Can you say the same?

Or do you care for others even less than you are accusing me of?

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Re: Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

#461594

Postby MrFoolish » November 28th, 2021, 12:54 pm

Midsmartin wrote:Incidentally, wearing a mask at home almost certainly has no benefit, due to very extended close contact.


I know of at least two households where some have tested positive for covid but others have not. So I'd have to question your statement.

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Re: Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

#461596

Postby onthemove » November 28th, 2021, 1:01 pm

Midsmartin wrote:Incidentally, wearing a mask at home almost certainly has no benefit, due to very extended close contact.


The scientific evidence doesn't agree with you.

See the link to the BMJ article earlier in the thread.

I've already provided it a number of times, so I won't bother repeating it again.

Personally, I don't think masks make much difference in the supermarket ... personally I think that the behavioural changes I observe in the people wearing the masks, undo any benefit the scientific evidence from the labs shows as being a benefit.

But my opinion keeps getting shot down because people keep demanding that the science tells me that I'm wrong.

Ok. But that works both ways.

The science also tells you that wearing a mask at home can reduce transmission by up to 79%.

People keep telling me that I have to wear a mask in the supermarket because the science says it works, end of story.

Fine... but the science says wearing a mask at home also works, and works quite effectively. (And also suggest that transmission at home is potentially a primary route of virus transmission)

So you can disagree with it all you want, but that's the science, and people on this thread keep repeatedly telling me that wearing a mask is apparently no hardship and that I have to do it because the science says it works.

So, like I say, I do hope all those pro-maskers are wearing theirs at home (unless they're living alone).

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Re: Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

#461598

Postby Mike4 » November 28th, 2021, 1:07 pm

onthemove wrote:
Mike4 wrote:I notice you have not come up with any practical reason you object to wearing a mask.


Have I missed where you pointed me to your requests pre-panedmic for people to wear face masks to protect others against cold and flu?

Mike4 wrote:You are doing your own credibility no good at all. Obviously I was writing about the collective 'you' and 'me' but you choose to deliberately misinterpret simply to suit yourself.


I responded to what you actually wrote.

While it's true that "you" can be used as both plural and singular, "me" is firmly in the singular camp - there is no 'collective me'.
("A speaker or writer uses me to refer to himself or herself. Me is a first person singular pronoun. Me is used as the object of a verb or a preposition." https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/me )

You even used it in capitals to emphasize it!

And I stand by my point...

I was responding to your accusation...

Mike4 wrote:"I can see from your posts you don't care a jot about me or my welfare"


Yet...

  • I'm double jabbed (not eligible for the booster yet)
  • I've continued to work from home throughout
  • I keep my distance from others
  • I shop later in the evening when the supermarket is much quieter, and in a large very spacious supermarket
  • I haven't done my previously normal secondary shop in a smaller more local supermarket, where distancing isn't possible, since prior to the pandemic
  • I'm still cutting my own hair; haven't been to the hairdresser since Jan 2020
  • I've been putting off seeing my GP about a minor issue that really needs seeing to (over the phone won't fix it), both to avoid contact with others, and also to help keep pressure off the NHS

All of the above are behaviours and adaptions that lessen the risk of me catching covid, and lessen the risk of spreading covid to others - whether that be you or anyone else.

But hey ho, you've decided on the basis that I really object to wearing a mask in the supermarket that I apparently "don't care a jot about [you] or [your] welfare"

Do you really believe that that is a rational, calm conclusion you have drawn there? You really don't think that there is perhaps just the tiniest teeniest bit of hysteria creeping into your arrival at that conclusion? You don't think there's just the tiniest possibility you might have become swept up in the messaging being pumped out by the government's behavioural psychologists - messaging designed for the purpose of mass manipulation?

That you really, truly honestly believe that mask wearing is such an overriding factor, that all the other factors combined count for sweet FA, and permit you judge that I "don't care a jot about [you] or [your] welfare"

Can you honestly tell me that you really are so caring about others that your behaviour in terms of your covid spreading risk has at least matched or bettered mine overall, such that you really are in a position to pass such a judgement on me?

The majority of times that I do my supermarket shop, I haven't encountered anyone else in the prior week since my last supermarket shop. With working from home and living alone, I'm still effectively in isolation for 7 days prior to doing my shop. I'm far more likely to be the one catching covid from my weekly shop, than be the one spreading covid. (Mask or no mask)

Can you say the same?

Or do you care for others even less than you are accusing me of?



I can see you are very, very angry about all this. Irrationally so in my opinion. I think I'll just stop responding to your posts.

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Re: Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

#461599

Postby XFool » November 28th, 2021, 1:16 pm

onthemove wrote:
XFool wrote:What is "covid hysteria"? If wet and stormy weather was predicted and I wrapped up warm and wore a raincoat outdoors, would I be suffering from "weather hysteria"?

Your analogy is flawed. Where is the prediction of a 'covid storm' coming from?

A "prediction" of a storm is not a storm. In my analogy I was rather more thinking in terms of taking sensible precautions. If rain is predicted I may take an umbrella. Even if I do, it may not rain...

onthemove wrote:The mandate to wear masks now is more akin to going outside on a reasonably nice summers day and seeing a nice fluffy cumulous cloud over on the horizon, and immediately rushing straight back home to wrap up warm and wear a rain coat. Yes, I would consider that hysteria / paranoia.

We obviously have somewhat different standards when it comes to "hysteria" and "paranoia". Then again, what I find rather hysterical, is how some people jump up and down and scream every time they are told to take reasonable precautions in the midst of a global pandemic.

onthemove wrote:
XFool wrote:It's highly infectious?
Anyway, thanks for helping me prove how all those people who tell me I'm wrong when I say many people seem not to understand the 'meaning' of the word "infectious", are indeed wrong. :)

You keep repeating this, but it makes no sense. You seem to refuse to explain what you mean by it. At least I've not seen any explanation.

I've already given you on a previous thread a logical explanation (using formal logic) of why your comment about it being infectious is logically inconsistent with our normal approach to 'infectious' diseases, but you haven't yet as far as I've seen given any explanation as to why this infectious disease is different to other infectious diseases that we treat differently.

Yes, I still remember your "logical explanation"...

onthemove wrote:As such I can but guess at what you are referring to.

Simply that it is still a relatively new, highly infectious, viral, human disease that has caused a global pandemic and still present (and so mutating) in large numbers of the world's human population. To me - and apparently to experts in these matters - this seems to have fairly obvious implications. If not, then what have the last two years been about? Have the conspiracy theorists been right all along?

onthemove wrote:So why is the governments advisor saying the delta is currently the variant of concern before christmas?

In all the articles that I've seen about the new variant, the one thing that I haven't seen yet - and I've specifically been looking for it - is whether there is any evidence to believe that this variant is likely to be more deadly... and if so, in what situations.

But like I say, it's actually unclear whether the new variant is the reason the government are introducing face masks. The various things I'm hearing from the government and the advisors don't seem to fit together in a coherent picture.

Perhaps you should ask yourself why other countries are also taking measures? Leaving aside the possibility it is a conspiracy... Do you not think they are concerned because:

1. As it is a new and significant mutation, it might be dangerous. Then again, hopefully, it might not be. We don't yet know.

2. In case it is dangerous, they don't want to be caught out this time around. (Good, I say)

3. We are going into the time of year which always is problematical for the NHS. Even without an ongoing pandemic.

To me, there seem to be an adequate number of plausible reasons there. Other opinions are available (as ever).

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Re: Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

#461604

Postby XFool » November 28th, 2021, 1:26 pm

onthemove wrote:
Mike4 wrote:Firstly, YOU wearing a mask is to protect ME from YOUR germs, not the other way around. ... I can see from your posts you don't care a jot about me or my welfare but that does not alter the function of mask wearing.

You can't catch covid over the internet, so how the hell is ME wearing a mask about protecting YOU?
(Just using your own capitalisations for the same emphasis).

Clearly your statement is nonsense - I am nowhere near you. Whether or not I wear a mask will make absolutely no difference to the risk of YOU catching covid from ME.

"Houston...!"

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Re: Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

#461605

Postby onthemove » November 28th, 2021, 1:38 pm

XFool wrote:Yes, I still remember your "logical explanation"...


That would be the logical explanation - using formal logic - which demonstrated a contradiction.

And you haven't yet provided any response to it that resolves the apparent contradiction in your position.

XFool wrote:Simply that it is still a relatively new, highly infectious, viral, human disease that has caused a global pandemic and still present (and so mutating) in large numbers of the world's human population.


Do you think it's going to become 'not infectious'?

Most scientists seem of the opinion that covid will become endemic. That means it's always going to be there, always infectious.

So your repeated answers to everything just stating "because it's infectious", don't really make sense, unless you're going to keep repeating it forever more. Because most scientists expect it will remain infectious, and remain with us. Like the common cold. Like the flu. etc.

So if the answer to any objection about measures, etc, is just to keep repeating "because it's infectious", well, if you don't elaborate on what you mean by 'because it's infectious', or add in some nuances to it, or caveats, or limits, or thresholds, or similar, then your tactic of just responding to everything with "because it's infectious" seems at best naïve.

XFool wrote:To me - and apparently to experts in these matters - this seems to have fairly obvious implications. If not, then what have the last two years been about? Have the conspiracy theorists been right all along?


You might have missed it, but scientists managed to create not just one vaccine but a fair few of them. They are also considered to be very effective vaccines. Most people have now had these vaccines.

And of the rest, most have had the virus now as well, which also builds up tolerance to future infection. There are very few people left who are unprotected one way or another.

The world has moved on in the past 2 years.

But you still seem to be repeating "infectious" as though we're still at 31st March 2020.

Today, the vast majority of us now have a reasonable degree of protection against serious illness and death from the infection.

It's what the vaccines are are for ... It's why we've had the vaccines.

You wouldn't bother putting on your rain coat if you're not actually going to go out in the rain.

It's time to get wet.

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Re: Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

#461606

Postby onthemove » November 28th, 2021, 1:44 pm

Mike4 wrote:I can see you are very, very angry about all this. Irrationally so in my opinion. I think I'll just stop responding to your posts.


Ah, the old running a way tactic when challenged.

I take it then, that no you can't say the same.

That even though you accuse me of ...

Mike4 wrote:"I can see from your posts you don't care a jot about me or my welfare"


That in truth - when considering all behaviours together, not just face masks in isolation - you are probably actually more of a covid risk to those around you than I am when I'm not wearing a face mask.

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Re: Face Masks - Getting Ridiculous

#461611

Postby tjh290633 » November 28th, 2021, 2:11 pm

Moderator Message:
I have just waded through three pages of this thread which has got to perpetual arguments about the same point between opposing protagonists. It is obvious that you will never agree, and always wish to have the last word.

To stop any further acrimony, name calling and angst, I am locking this thread. If you want to squabble between yourselves, please use private messaging.

TJH


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