Novak Djokovic

[Dod101]

Even if he is allowed to stay in Oziland how can he be in any fit state to play next week? The whole thing is just a mess.

Dod

[ReformedCharacter]

Even if he is allowed to stay in Oziland how can he be in any fit state to play next week? The whole thing is just a mess.

Dod

It might actually help him, assuming he gets to play. He will have been fit when he arrived and no doubt will have been able to do some exercises while incarcerated. Novax has a very powerful will to succeed and he may be able to psychologically turn the situation to his advantage; if he gets to play he will already have won one battle.

RC

[Julian]

From the report that I heard on the radio this morning is that, after all this time of Djokovic refusing to confirm or deny his vaccine status (although most I think assumed that the "no comment" responses were indicative that he wasn't vaccinated), the release of the papers associated with this court hearing has now confirmed for the first time that he has not had any vaccine shots.

Prior to the court case the other uncertainty was whether the medical exemption Djokovic was claiming was prior infection based on the alleged positive PCR result on 16th Dec 2020 or if it was for some other medical reason. It think it's fair to say that it was widely assumed that the PCR test was the basis of his claim but I'm not sure that was ever definitely confirmed. Has anyone heard any news reporting in the last few hours as to whether the released court papers have anything definitive to say regarding the basis of Djokovic's claim for exemption from the vaccination requirement?

- Julian

[pje16]

Perhaps he should add the letter "s" to his first name

[Arborbridge]

Even if he is allowed to stay in Oziland how can he be in any fit state to play next week? The whole thing is just a mess.

Dod

It might actually help him, assuming he gets to play. He will have been fit when he arrived and no doubt will have been able to do some exercises while incarcerated. Novax has a very powerful will to succeed and he may be able to psychologically turn the situation to his advantage; if he gets to play he will already have won one battle.

RC

He thrithes on this sort of thing and it will probably make him play his best game.

I thought we might see the judge make a dickensian type decision, such as an adjournment until after the tournament, or some other way of batting the ball around.

All the news seems to around how badly NJ has been treated (treated like most immigrants with no compliant papers, one suspects) but not much about the merits of the actually immigration argument.
I do find this chanting crowd a bit worrying - reminders of Trump's mob storming the Capitol - and now it's gone political rather than strictly legal, it really come down to which way the politicians wil judge their support in the country, as to what they try next. Who would want to make a decision with a load of baying serbian fans at the door who might spill over into a out and out riot if provoked?

Yet, there are no brownie points for the government in being seen to let someone get away with it, when millions of Aussies have been suffering.

IF Joko wins, it'll be good day for the antivaxers and a bad one for the rest of us.

Arb

[Julian]

...
I do find this chanting crowd a bit worrying - reminders of Trump's mob storming the Capitol - and now it's gone political rather than strictly legal, it really come down to which way the politicians wil judge their support in the country, as to what they try next. Who would want to make a decision with a load of baying serbian fans at the door who might spill over into a out and out riot if provoked?

Yet, there are no brownie points for the government in being seen to let someone get away with it, when millions of Aussies have been suffering.

IF Joko wins, it'll be good day for the antivaxers and a bad one for the rest of us.

Arb

I share your concern re the crowds and I was also strongly reminded of supporters at various Trump events. To me the storming of the Capitol was taking things up yet another notch so I am not sure I would (yet) draw that comparison but echoes of Trump supporters at rallies, protesting masks etc then I definitely saw similarities.

I agree with your (and others') analysis that the decision makers (politicians) in Australia are trying to gauge the prevalent mood in the country in order to make a decision based on political gain or loss in the upcoming elections rather than anything to do with border integrity or wider Covid-19 containment issues. If ND does get to play though there will be an interesting final act to this saga, the crown reaction. Although the crowd at the open is a skewed selection (they are all presumably tennis fans) I will be very interested to see what level of hostility is expressed against ND during his matches assuming that he does get to play. Perhaps enough of the Tumpesque baying mob will have tickets and counteract those aggrieved by a decision to allow him to play but if the crowd response were to be overwhelmingly negative I would think that some in government might be concerned that they had made the wrong call on the public mood.

That raises another question in my mind. I wonder just what percentage of that baying pro-ND mob outside the court house were genuine ND fans, or even tennis fans at all, vs the percentage of people who were simply anti-vaxers seeing this as a convenient extremely highly visibility event at which they could express their opposition to vaccines.

- Julian

[Newroad]

Hi Julian.

The "facts" will presumably out over time now.

One immediate question springs to mind - how did he test positive on the 16th yet (allegedly) go maskless at an event on the 17th? There are possible ways this could happen, e.g. routine (as opposed to based on symptoms) PCR test on the 16th, results after event on the 17th, but this (a "routine" PCR test - seems a bit OTT) doesn't ring true as a plausible possibility to me. I have a more Occam's Razor view which you can no doubt surmise.

It seems to me the Federal Court judge ruled on a procedural basis (which is fair enough) - either the State (Victorian) Government screwed up early, in allowing the initial Visa to be approved, or the Australian Border Force screwed up later, not allowing Djokovic reasonable time to defend the basis for its issuance. The Federal Minister will hopefully decide to act (or not) based on what's right, but like anyone, he may be consciously or sub-consciously influenced by other factors.

Regards, Newroad

[Mike4]

Well the judge passed a comment that there was nothing ND could have done to avoid the situation he finds himself in.

I don't think this judge has much in the way of imagination because there are two things spring immediately to mind Novak could have done to prevent this situation...

1) Get vaccinated in plenty of time for the tournament, or
2) Turn up early enough to serve out the 14 days quarantine Australia requires.

That nice Djokovic elected to do neither, so is the architect of his own downfall IMO. Assuming the government doesn't cave in and bail him out.

[Newroad]

Hi Mike.

I very much agree with you in principle. However, the judge needs to deal with the facts and the process as able to be demonstrated.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-01-10/novak-djokovic-australian-deportation-court-hearing-melbourne/100747256

It may or may not be true that he had Covid on 16th December - but whatever the truth on that, some credible medical professional must have said he did. On that basis, both the Victorian Government and Tennis Australia formally notified him that he adequately met the entry requirements and a visa was issued. When doubt was raised about this on entry, the judge formed the view that he wasn't given adequate opportunity to explain/consult as needed.

So, it seems to me to be a largely procedural ruling - which, as I said, is fair enough in and of itself - from that point of the medical professional's advice onwards, Djokovic could not have done more with respect to the visa. I would have no issue with the Federal Minister taking a different pragmatic view and quashing the visa a second time - but this would not be without ramifications.

Regards, Newroad

[moorfield]

Even if he is allowed to stay in Oziland how can he be in any fit state to play next week? The whole thing is just a mess.

Dod

And even if he's in a fit state to play I think he's going to get a fair bit of "chat" from the local crowd to put him off. Should be fun!

[Arborbridge]

The fact that the Aussie government haven't gone for ND a second time, as yet, suggests they are weighing up the political and legal options. They wouldn't want to slip on a banana skin again. It may just be they've given up, but I hope not: the sight of "freedom" loving antivaxers and Farage cockahoop is just too much for any sane person
If they take too long, it will all be a bit too late.

Arb.

[UncleEbenezer]

The fact that the Aussie government haven't gone for ND a second time, as yet, suggests they are weighing up the political and legal options. They wouldn't want to slip on a banana skin again. It may just be they've given up, but I hope not: the sight of "freedom" loving antivaxers and Farage cockahoop is just too much for any sane person
If they take too long, it will all be a bit too late.

Arb.

When I first went on a peace march about 30 years ago, I had to overcome my revulsion at taking part in something associated with the left.
Similarly now I'm working on finding myself the same side of some issues as Farage.

Though the latest on the news, story of him not turning up in time for mandatory quarantine, leaves me lacking sympathy for the ball-basher.

[murraypaul]

The latest news is that ND has admitted that the information on his application about not having travelled in the 14 days prior to entering Australia was false, so if the government wanted to cancel his visa, they could. Whether they do is a political decision though.

[Watis]

The latest news is that ND has admitted that the information on his application about not having travelled in the 14 days prior to entering Australia was false, so if the government wanted to cancel his visa, they could. Whether they do is a political decision though.

It's funny how often in life, when errors are made, they always seem to allow the desired outcome for the person responsible for the error.

If Australia would have denied entry had you or I made similar errors, then they should deny entry to ND too.

Watis

[servodude]

The latest news is that ND has admitted that the information on his application about not having travelled in the 14 days prior to entering Australia was false, so if the government wanted to cancel his visa, they could. Whether they do is a political decision though.

It's funny how often in life, when errors are made, they always seem to allow the desired outcome for the person responsible for the error.

If Australia would have denied entry had you or I made similar errors, then they should deny entry to ND too.

Watis

If you tick the wrong box you'll get some awkward questions but being denied entry is at one end of the spectrum of results; eye roll and tutting being at the other
- but it's best to be honest about it (unless you're trying to bring in 20kg of powdered Tiger schlong - in which case pretend you can't speak English and they'll throw it out and wave you through with a bit of a fine)

The past couple of days has been surprisingly well handled by the Aus authorities - all they had to do was wait, do nothing and, say nothing... and in a break with tradition they managed it

In the same time Novak has been handed enough rope to dig a bigger hole for himself
He has either faked the "convenient" result, or ignored it for publicity events; either way putting a bit of a stain on his character (and leaving himself open to possible charges)
- even the Serbian PM has decided that he's not the second coming (removing the perceived risk to the Rio Tinto lithium operations in Serbia)

I think it's leaning towards him being deported
- the draw for the tennis is in a few hours, so unless they want to screw over Tennis Australia by way of punishment (which they might) the call should be made quite shortly

It's all quite exciting

- sd

[Julian]

The latest news is that ND has admitted that the information on his application about not having travelled in the 14 days prior to entering Australia was false, so if the government wanted to cancel his visa, they could. Whether they do is a political decision though.

It's funny how often in life, when errors are made, they always seem to allow the desired outcome for the person responsible for the error.

If Australia would have denied entry had you or I made similar errors, then they should deny entry to ND too.

Watis

If you tick the wrong box you'll get some awkward questions but being denied entry is at one end of the spectrum of results; eye roll and tutting being at the other
- but it's best to be honest about it (unless you're trying to bring in 20kg of powdered Tiger schlong - in which case pretend you can't speak English and they'll throw it out and wave you through with a bit of a fine)

The past couple of days has been surprisingly well handled by the Aus authorities - all they had to do was wait, do nothing and, say nothing... and in a break with tradition they managed it

In the same time Novak has been handed enough rope to dig a bigger hole for himself
He has either faked the "convenient" result, or ignored it for publicity events; either way putting a bit of a stain on his character (and leaving himself open to possible charges)
- even the Serbian PM has decided that he's not the second coming (removing the perceived risk to the Rio Tinto lithium operations in Serbia)

I think it's leaning towards him being deported
- the draw for the tennis is in a few hours, so unless they want to screw over Tennis Australia by way of punishment (which they might) the call should be made quite shortly

It's all quite exciting

- sd

What do you think the crowd reaction will be like if he is still there to play? Neither party has been covered in glory in this affair but as you outlined above ND’s behaviour is contemptible either way, either faking a result in order to play or ignoring a genuine positive result in order to carry on with his scheduled engagements, so for me he is the bigger villain hence I confess that I want a bad outcome for him. If he doesn’t get deported I confess that I would take some small comfort if the Australian crowds did a good job of expressing my feelings towards him.

- Julian

[servodude]

What do you think the crowd reaction will be like if he is still there to play? Neither party has been covered in glory in this affair but as you outlined above ND’s behaviour is contemptible either way, either faking a result in order to play or ignoring a genuine positive result in order to carry on with his scheduled engagements, so for me he is the bigger villain hence I confess that I want a bad outcome for him. If he doesn’t get deported I confess that I would take some small comfort if the Australian crowds did a good job of expressing my feelings towards him.

- Julian

Sentiment will be pretty similar to the poll here I'd imagine - and a lot of the crowd will let him know it

Counter to that though, I do expect he'll attract a bit of a gobby antagonistic mob (you'll have seen the sort crowding the cars post the court ruling) if he does play and that is enough to stop us from going.

A first Thursday ground pass is a tradition for us, but if he were playing that day I suspect it would feel more like the kind of footy game where they're letting off flares and that's just not worth it

- sd

[servodude]

...so the draw for the Tennis has been postponed.. ...till 16:15 AEDT or about 6 minutes from now

Surely something must be about to happen?
...
...
Nup ... nothing

-sd

[Arborbridge]

...so the draw for the Tennis has been postponed.. ...till 16:15 AEDT or about 6 minutes from now

Surely something must be about to happen?
...
...
Nup ... nothing

-sd

Vision: ND strides out to play on the first day. Police come on court to arrest him. Hullabaloo breaks out. What theatre!
Vision fades as improbable.

Arb.

[TUK020]

The fact that the Aussie government haven't gone for ND a second time, as yet, suggests they are weighing up the political and legal options. They wouldn't want to slip on a banana skin again. It may just be they've given up, but I hope not: the sight of "freedom" loving antivaxers and Farage cockahoop is just too much for any sane person
If they take too long, it will all be a bit too late.

Arb.

When I first went on a peace march about 30 years ago, I had to overcome my revulsion at taking part in something associated with the left.
Similarly now I'm working on finding myself the same side of some issues as Farage.
.

Could one smooth out the cognitive dissonance by thinking how one could support Farage getting permanent leave to remain in Australia?