Deputyship/trusteeship selling home

[lisyloo2]

Need some advice.
MIL and FIL own flat as joint tenants.
MIL would not agree to POA and is now incapable (decided officially on 11/7/17) and is permanantly in a nursing home.
FIL is in hospital and going into a nursing home officially temporarily. Our expectation is that this will become permanent but is currently temporary (hence their home is currently disregarded from fees).
We have POA for FIL and he is usually capable but since 16/1/18 when he went into hospital he has been suffering from delirium and is temporarily incapable. This may change if he becomes medically well.

We cannot sell a house with deputyship.
For trusteeship the form says we need it to be for a sole owner (not true) or for joint owner to have capacity (currently not true).

If he goes into nursing care permanently (likely) they will both become private payers and we’ll need to sell their flat.
How do we do that?

[lisyloo2]

Looks like we need deputyship AND a court order to sell a joint property.

[Chrysalis]

Could the care provider make a charge on the home? I think local authorities can do so. So it all gets paid when the property is sold on death.
IANAL or any other sort of expert on this though.

[lisyloo]

Thanks for the post, but I'm not sure it helps.

If he goes into care permanently then the flat is empty. If we keep it empty we have to pay for service charges (3K per year), ground rent (£550 pa), council tax (after 6 months but punitive after 2 years empty), insurance etc. and are liable also for it (say a leak affets other tenants).
I'm not sure of the benefits of doing that.
With FIL and MIL in nursing care who can do nothing we all pretty busy with visiting, buying their clothes, paying their bills etc.

If MIL dies first then we don't need deputy ship as flat is passed to FIL and we have POA for him, but if (more likely) he dies first then flat passes to her and we still need a court order to sell the flat.

I can't see any advantages to keeping it can you? (once he's deemed permanent).
Whilst he only temporarily in nursing care then it will be kept as it's his home to which he may return (and therefore disregarded for fee purposes). That is an official position rather than our expectation.

[didds]

rentijg it out is a possible "advantage". Though I appreciate that that comes with its own issues, and tyhat of course you may just not be willing to go there.

didds

[lisyloo]

We cannot rent it out whilst FIL might come back (and might want commode/bottle in the lounge so lodger not an option).
We don't have authority to rent out MIL's flat so would still need deputyship.
It would raise about say £400 per month, whereas when they are both fee payers we will need £1000 per WEEK so massive shortfall.
I don't expect LA would approve of us having shortfall, they would want it sold.
No-one available to act as landlord whilst family are already supporting 2 elderly parents (they can do nothing, so all banking, shopping has to be done).

I can't think of any advantage. Once we know neither are coming back we need to get rid.
We could possibly rent for 6 months whilst waiting for deputyship, but unlikely someone would want that kind of "sheltered" accomondation short term and we'd then have the possible risk of getting rid of them.

Thanks and please let me know if I've missed anything but I can't see where the advantage is.

[lisyloo]

As far as I understand it we need deputyship plus court order to sell joint property (deputyship alone is not sufficient to sell a JOINTLY owned property).

Does anyone know if there is any advantage to getting deputyship first?
Disadvatage is that we may not need it at all (unlikely but MIL could die first) and then have to apply for court order ONCE we are in a position to sell (when he goes permanent).
Or is it better fee/admin/time wise to do both together? Time off for DH is v.expensive as he's a contractor so won't get paid holiday.
I'm thinking the latter, but don't know exactly how the process works.

We are NOT in a position to get court order to sell right now as FIL will go to nursing home on a TEMPorary basis, so it's still his home and therefore not in his best interests to sell his home.

[Chrysalis]

No I agree that there is no advantage in keeping the flat empty or really in renting it, I was just pointing out that if you CAN'T find a way to sell it, or it just doesn't get sold for a long time, then that's what's likely to happen. In other words, you PIL won't be turfed out of the homes just because they don't have the ready cash to meet the fees - it will all be accounted for in the end.
I agree you have no option really but to do what you need to do to sell it. I think if they have low income some of the fees for court orders etc will be reduced. Are they LA clients at present? Would the LA be able to advise you on what is needed to sell? (given they have an interest in it...)
Otherwise you might need to ask a solicitor. Or try AgeUK - they and Citizens Advice will have some info on their websites, whether its enough to answer your specific issues I don't know.
I wouldn't panic about it though. Just take the action you need to, slowly and steadily, as you have the time and energy. Prioritise actually caring and visiting them rather than dealing with solicitors. I know its hard work managing old folks affairs.

[lisyloo]

Thanks.
I am sure there is a way to sell it because if (for example) there were no family the LA would apply to the courts.
We know he won't be turfed out and he can't be because he has only taken 3 steps in the last 2 months, so can't eat/drink/wash/toilet or anything on his own.
I think the fees will be reduced whilst the house is a home.
When it ceases to be a home (if he is declared permanent) and becomes an asset then they have to pay fees in full.

She is an LA client and he will be initially whilst temporary, but once his status is permanent, then home becomes an asset and they both become private payers.

Not panicking but if we can save money/time then we would want to do so as I understand this can take a long time e.g. 6 months.

The dilemma is whether to apply for deputyship now and potentially save money and time, but I'm not suer whether it does in this situation when we'll probably need a court order in addition.
My feeling is to do both together as we won't get a discount on fees but it might save going to court twice (which involves time-off work and travel and may be ore important than the cost).

[Chrysalis]

Well it sounds like you’re doing all the right things. Personally, if it were me, I’d probably do as much fact finding as possible but not take any action until it is needed. It sounds like a few stages to go through yet. So get all in order, but don’t actually initiate court action until you’re being asked for the money. How much equity is in the house? How long do you think it’s likely to last? (Is it worth getting the house sale ready to maximise value?)

[lisyloo]

Flat is worth approx £120K (before fees), other assets are £14.5K joint (below the £14,250 EACH threshold currently).
Paying for both will be around £1K per week after pension, pension credit, attendance allowance and NHS funded nursing care is considered, so it would last around 2 years, but we'd get a contribution once they are down to £23.5K per person and would stop at £14,250 per person.
We are aware there won't be much inheritance left but that's not a concern (and wouldn't matter if it was).

No I don't think it's the right point to do anything with the house yet as there is a chance it may still be used as a home, so we can't get rid of any furniture or possessions yet. He was also a heavy smoker for 70 years and whilst he hasn't smoked for 2 months, I wouldn't want to paint it yet.
Also a chance commode could be used in the lounge/bedroom so wouldn't want to pay for new carpets either yet !!!
We will also be tied up in the immediate term with choosing a care home.
We are currently waiting for a list of those that might meet his (high) needs and have vacancies from social workers.
We've been through this before for MIL so are aware of many of the homes in the local area.

[lisyloo]

Interesting situation now.
LA are currently saying that home that MIL is in is too expensive for FIL.
THey have suggested 2. I of which SIL says is "over her dead body" and the other is far enough away that they might never see each other again (but LA appear to only care about costs).
Interesting times.

[Chrysalis]

but if he's going to be funding himself, what business is it of the LA? that's actually the one good thing about self funding, you get to choose for yourself! (at least until the money runs out)

[lisyloo]

His placement is initally temporary so the property is disregarded.
If his status changes to permanent there is a 12 week disregard on property.
So LA are paying for temporary period + 12 week disregard period.
After that (long term) he is a private payer.

We have said that we are resolute about him not going somewhere that isn't safe for his needs and also somewhere he might not ever see his wife and family visits will be limited.
We understand that LA's get charged for bed blocking, so we are hoping they will concede.
We have asked for an explanation as to why fees are ok for her but not for him.
No explanation so far just a suggestion of cheaper places.

[Chrysalis]

Ok, good luck with it. But in the worst case scenario, you could move him to your preferred option once the LA funding period stops...not ideal, but it does give you some control ultimately.

[lisyloo2]

Thanks for the suggestion.
We don’t think we can even apply for a court order until the 12 week disregard ends (as he could potentially go home so a judge should not allow his home to be sold).
It could take many months to get a court order and only then could we instruct an estate agent to put the property on the market.
So we could easily be talking a year by the time there is any private funding.
I’m not a betting person but I wouldn’t bet on FIL lasting that long.

Social workers have spoken to him and he wasn’t bothered.
They said they don’t need our consent if he can agree for himself.
We would argue he’s depressed and has at times lost capacity.

The care home selection appears to have been outsourced in our area and they seem to be more hard nosed financially hence not allowing FIL to have the same as MIL last August.

[lisyloo]

Great news. LA have agreed to move FIL to the same home as MIL TODAY (cost £850, LA budget £711).

This makes it better for both of them plus much easier for the family.
The latter may sound unimportant but when visiting every day (at times, for example if they are ill) on top of commuting it's a factor.
It will enable us to keep a closer eye on their health and well-being.

I don't know the ins and outs of our/their rights but I do know the LA can be fined if people are bed blocking and hospital beds are around £3K per week, so I'm sure that's a factor.
For a moment I thought they were going to move him without our consent on the basis that he had capacity and I had visions of my SIL being arrested for abduction !!

[Chrysalis]

Excellent news. Good luck with the rest of it