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Delicate path to tread

A friendly ear
GoSeigen
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Delicate path to tread

#149676

Postby GoSeigen » July 3rd, 2018, 12:56 pm

A tenancy is agreed between two parties who have been close friends and have many friends in common. Bad idea, I know, but it's already done. It should be clear to both parties that a Tenancy was been created between the amateur and reluctant landlords and the long-term tenants (not a licence). The tenants were made aware in advance that the landlords want to put the property on the market and may therefore give notice at some point. The tenants made clear in advance that they would prefer to stay as long as possible. Bad idea no.2 (clash of objectives) but it's done and the arrangement suited both parties at the outset. No agent was used.


Some months on, sure enough, the landlords wish to regain possession. However, the landlords have not given the correct notice under the terms of the tenancy (i.e. Section 8 or Section 21 notice), they simply wrote a formal letter asking tenants to move within 2 months, which they consider sufficient "notice". Tenants need to find a replacement family home in an area with low housing availability.

The law is that only a court can grant landlords possession, and that the correct procedure has to be followed in gaining a court order.

So the situation is:
1. LL has given "notice" that is not actually valid notice either legally or under the tenancy terms.
2. Tenants have replied that they are confused whether LL intends to secure an eviction or is initiating discussion/negotiation about when to leave.
3. LL seems oblivious to correct legal procedure to gain possession; tenant shouldn't have to coach them; LL seems not to have noticed that the two parties' have conflicting goals -- but is open to a discussion.
4. Tenants have said that they will only move as and when they have found suitable accommodation. LL has sent further emails reiterating the "notice" they believe they have given [which legally is incompatible with their obligation to let tenants peaceably enjoy their tenancy].


A week has passed since the first "notice" letter and it's looking messy. Where does one go from here? Naturally the tenants wish to retain all their rights including needing as long as possible to secure a new home of similar standard; but also they see the landlords' needs. So where does the tenant's self-interest intersect with the moral goals of remaining on friendly terms with the landlords and not being seen to be needlessly obstructive or difficult?

As the tenant (surprise!) I am inclined to ask the LL for a meeting in our home with them setting the agenda, since they are the party wishing to end the tenancy. How to suggest this is the hard part, especially as I really don't want to deal with this stuff -- I'd much rather the landlords had either given proper notice, or hand themselves initiated the negotiation with us about when to leave, taking into consideration our requirements.


I loved the earlier volleyball thread and hope people who have had similar experiences can give us equally good advice.


GS

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Re: Delicate path to tread

#149736

Postby redsturgeon » July 3rd, 2018, 3:36 pm

I'm not quite sure why you would rather have the LL initiate the negotiations but I think you both have to sit down and talk this through. Get all the cards on the table.

As has been said, you need to start looking now but it would be good to try to understand why the LL wants possession back so soon.

John

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Re: Delicate path to tread

#149738

Postby GoSeigen » July 3rd, 2018, 3:43 pm

Former part-time landlord here!

ap8889 wrote:Part-time landlord here.

Bottom line is, ultimately the tenant is going to have to vacate, one way or another so why risk the goodwill by holding on. Just me but I think it best if you coach them on how to submit the correct notice, as a formality, and insist on legal notice periods, then save emotional energy for the property search and subsequent move rather than on conflict. They clearly are ill-versed in the legal dance that has to go on to get possession, so expect dumb amateur hassles over damages and deposits. Did you have a deposit in escrow? Could be a little leverage there if they screwed that up.


No deposit and the house is in a state already, so there shouldn't be much issue with damages, fortunately. If everyone assumes that the normal route for possession will be followed we have plenty of time to find a new rental. However, their idea seems to be that a landlord tells a tenant to be out in 2 months and the tenant leaves on that date. Only the second time we've ever been evicted in many many tenancies so not sure how educated landlords should be.


It's a good time of year to move on, as schools will break up soon. There is plenty of rental property out there, and in many areas some of it is probably not washing its face, so you may yet find a bargain. Have you considered buying the landlord out?


This is one of the most expensive areas in the country and rural, so purchase not an option for us, and rentals within reach of schools are few and far between. Added to which, the letting agency system is completely broken -- agents are happy to sabotage a negotiation if their extortionate fee demands are questioned by a prospective tenant.

Really not looking forward to that process. And tenants like to take their kids on holiday too!


GS

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Re: Delicate path to tread

#149740

Postby GoSeigen » July 3rd, 2018, 3:57 pm

redsturgeon wrote:I'm not quite sure why you would rather have the LL initiate the negotiations but I think you both have to sit down and talk this through. Get all the cards on the table.


It's more a case of not knowing if they'd want to negotiate at all. So far two votes for having the discussion. How much could be reasonably expected from a LL in such a discussion if they are keen to have possession?

As has been said, you need to start looking now but it would be good to try to understand why the LL wants possession back so soon.

John


Sorry, not clear in OP: they've had an offer from a potential buyer of the property. We have indeed started looking.

GS

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Re: Delicate path to tread

#149744

Postby redsturgeon » July 3rd, 2018, 4:10 pm

Since you understand they have not given legal notice yet but they think they have then I think it is your duty as a friend to inform them of this. If you let this drag on before you tell them and then they are delayed by this or lose their sale then I guess you can kiss your friendship goodbye.

If however you have an up front and honest conversation then you both might be able to come to a mutually acceptable arrangement and keep the friendship.

John

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Re: Delicate path to tread

#149870

Postby PaulBullet » July 4th, 2018, 8:00 am

GoSeigen

How long have they been renting in this house

Paul

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Re: Delicate path to tread

#149874

Postby GoSeigen » July 4th, 2018, 8:38 am

PaulBullet wrote:GoSeigen

How long have they been renting in this house

Paul


The tenants have been there a bit longer than 6 months, 12-month contract with 6-m symmetrical break clause. The landlord occupied the property before that, though it had been let on other occasions in the past (several years).

GS

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Re: Delicate path to tread

#149979

Postby GoSeigen » July 4th, 2018, 1:52 pm

redsturgeon wrote:Since you understand they have not given legal notice yet but they think they have then I think it is your duty as a friend to inform them of this. If you let this drag on before you tell them and then they are delayed by this or lose their sale then I guess you can kiss your friendship goodbye.

If however you have an up front and honest conversation then you both might be able to come to a mutually acceptable arrangement and keep the friendship.

John


Thank you everyone for the very helpful comments so far.

John, your comments above confirmed what we felt ourselves, which is that even though in some ways it prejudices our own situation, it is better to be upfront when someone appears to be acting out of genuine ignorance -- quite apart from anything else, they may have a genuine good-faith reason for doing what they are doing which we had not thought of ourselves.


We have now had the conversation, explaining that we did not consider the earlier "notice" letter received to be adequate or lawful notice under the contract. We reiterated that we would only be in a position to give up possession when we had new accommodation. We also left open the door for them to discuss with us a mutually agreeable termination of the tenancy. Mr LL was not very happy on the phone but seemed reluctantly to accept what we said. e.g. He asked why we were doing "this" to him, but didn't elaborate when asked on what he felt we were doing to him. From our perspective we feel we are only asking them to do what they agreed to do in the first place...

Further thoughts appreciated, but for now the ball is in the LLs' court. Should add that potentially complicating this is an ongoing issue with electrical safety in the house. Electrician due to visit soon hopefully.

GS

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Re: Delicate path to tread

#150361

Postby dspp » July 6th, 2018, 12:44 am

GS,

Just my opinion here.

The state of the house should have nothing to do with this. Nor should the availability of housing. If you want to get legal then by all means dig your heels in, but that will cause a) your landlord to pop down the solicitors and learn pdq; b) you all to fall out; c) you to get a bad reputation in the area and no/poor references. Doesn't sound ideal.

Go gracefully as speedily as possible imho. If necessary move out of area until you can get back into area. Take a very long holiday away maybe (six months for example ?). Ask your landlords for help in them asking around their network as well as you doing the normal pathways.

Dealing with agents going in to another place is just part of the real world. Maybe it shouldn't be, but it is.

Renting has upsides. These are the downsides. This in particular is the downside of renting from a friend informally. It is all a balance. Nothing is perfect, don't make it worse. Good luck.

regards, dspp

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Re: Delicate path to tread

#150378

Postby GoSeigen » July 6th, 2018, 8:01 am

dspp wrote:GS,

Just my opinion here.

The state of the house should have nothing to do with this. Nor should the availability of housing. If you want to get legal then by all means dig your heels in, but that will cause a) your landlord to pop down the solicitors and learn pdq; b) you all to fall out; c) you to get a bad reputation in the area and no/poor references. Doesn't sound ideal.


This is at heart a legal issue. You seem to have little regard for that aspect in your reply.

The state of the house sadly does have something to do with it: fixing the electrical problems is expensive for the landlords and causes them stress. Not fixing them is negligent and exposes our family and our visitors and the neighbours and the landlord's property to direct danger, including exposed live wiring and two electrical fires since we took occupation six months ago. Dealing with the problem now, when the landlord wants the tenancy to end soon, has obvious repercussions.

Similarly with the availability of housing. A family will move out of this house. At that point they will need a new place to live. The speed at which new accommodation can be secured is a direct function of that housing availability. If we have no home on the date the landlord hopes we will move out then he will find that we are still in his property. Fact.

That is when legal issues come in. You seem to imply we should allow the landlord to continue in blissful ignorance of his rights and liabilities. How is that compatible with our role as a friend? We WANT him to be informed as to his and our legal rights. The fact that he is not means he is annoying us in his handling of the tenancy AND prejudicing his own ability to enforce his rights as a landlord. Wiser people on this thread have commented that as friends we should at least make them aware of their mistakes rather than let them continue in ignorance. We have taken that good advice to heart.

As for falling out and getting a bad reputation -- I don't shrink from conflict: the challenge is to resolve it; and we will get a bad reputation only if a) the landlords bad-mouth us (and their credibilty hereabouts is already pretty shaky) or b) if we do something wrong which we absolutely do not intend to do.

Go gracefully as speedily as possible imho. If necessary move out of area until you can get back into area. Take a very long holiday away maybe (six months for example ?). Ask your landlords for help in them asking around their network as well as you doing the normal pathways.

The last suggestion is reasonable -- when we have that conversation. The other points are obvious but take no account of various practicalities and cost including children and their schooling.

Dealing with agents going in to another place is just part of the real world. Maybe it shouldn't be, but it is.


It makes negotiating extremely slow and painful. A possible outcome is no deal by the time the landlord hopes we will be out. The above platitude offers no answer to that complication.

Renting has upsides. These are the downsides. This in particular is the downside of renting from a friend informally. It is all a balance. Nothing is perfect, don't make it worse. Good luck.


I came here not to be told these things, but already assuming them to be true and seeking good advice from people with related experience. If you have experience of this sort of problem it might be nice if you shared how it worked out. Incidentally, how many times have you evicted a tenant from one of your properties?

GS

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Re: Delicate path to tread

#150385

Postby vrdiver » July 6th, 2018, 8:47 am

GS,

I think you need to re-read dspp's post. As an outsider, it seemed reasonable advice to me, but you have responded as if it was posted on PD rather than CC :(

You are in an awkward position. Your original post highlighted that you understood that renting from a friend, especially an "amateur" landlord was not ideal. In your last post you have started to conflate three different arguments, two of which appear to be red herrings:

1) Your landlord needs to give proper notice and you as a tenant have rights and obligations re termination of the rental - perfectly fair and you seem to be acting honourably in bringing your landlord up to speed.

2) There are electrical problems: yes these need sorting out, but they have no bearing on the termination date of your lease.

3) You may be unable to secure appropriate accommodation before the end of the legal lease. This is not your landlord's (legal) problem!

You've started to discuss moving out with your friend. That's good, but it sounds like you need to have more discussion. What is it that he thinks you're "doing to him"? (Does he have hopes for a sale that you're putting at risk? Whilst that's his problem, not yours, understanding it will help you understand him and his point of view, as well as what is driving his negotiation position).

Ideally, you would find a replacement property that meets all your needs and is available when you need it. As you've implied from your OP, this is very unlikely, so you need to figure out plan B. That's going to involve compromise, so it's important to start prioritising and working out your red lines.

If moving in less-than-ideal circumstances, you may need to make a 2-stage transition: the first to secure accommodation that meets at least your minimum requirements, followed by a more leisurely and considered move to one that meets all or most of your desired objectives.

In the meantime, how you deal with this is up to you, but beware: just because you don't shrink from conflict doesn't mean other people are as logical and objective about resolving issues. Sometimes it's better to take a step back and look at the emotional side, not just the facts. Your friend (whom you know much better than us posters) may respond very differently to stress pressure than you. It's worth thinking about what will work (from a persuasion aspect) for them, not just cold logic or legal rights.

Despite the above, one thing that may help both of you might be to lay out a timeline of events. The law and the contract will determine what triggers kick off which count-down clocks with respect to your leave date. There will be a no-contest pathway and a series of delayed options. Perhaps presenting your landlord with earliest, latest and most-likely leaving timescales would help set their expectations, whilst also allowing them to explain what and why their timeline may be different. You have the law on your side, but you also have your friend's "agenda" which will be driven by some other time-line. Knowing this may help your own decision making.

In a more ideal situation, you wouldn't have to do this: it would all be by properly served legal notice and not up for discussion, but you are where you are...

Good luck with the move.

VRD

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Re: Delicate path to tread

#150397

Postby dspp » July 6th, 2018, 9:41 am

GS,

My apologies if I have upset you, that was not the intention.

My answer was not without some experience of your issues. I was a tenant in the UK for about ten years solid through until maybe six years ago. Sometimes formally, sometimes informally, and not always in perfect building stock. I am currently a landlord, with live-in lodgers in my own home, with proper contracts in place (albeit very short form). I once had a rural tenancy approximately near Ascot so I am aware how tricky it can be to find good rural property in a desirable area. As a tenant I hated agencies and their behaviours.

Yes I have given people notice, and for that matter received it (though the latter was in a business context, with rearguard action fought !).

My understanding of law is iffy in this area, as I only know enough to deal with & relearn each situation as it arises. However at heart I feel this is best not treated as being a legal problem, hence the comments I made.

I sense that the best resolution to your problem is to look at it as being a "find a new home" problem, rather than a "stay in old home for as long as possible" problem. Therefore, given what you have said about difficulty in finding property, it strikes me that you need to focus your creativity on changing the boundary conditions around the new property so as to give yourself the best chance. After all the ideal solution for you is to have a vacant property ready for immediate entry.

If it helps, when I was in the Ascot area one of the keys to opening up the renting market sufficiently to get the type of property we wished, whilst still having access to the particular school we wanted for our daughter, was the acceptance of a 40-min commute from home to school. It was a real drag to do this each day, but it delivered a solution for us. Your circumstances will be different, but is this not the most fruitful place to focus your efforts ?

best wishes,
dspp

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Re: Delicate path to tread

#150405

Postby GoSeigen » July 6th, 2018, 10:00 am

vrdiver wrote:GS,

I think you need to re-read dspp's post. As an outsider, it seemed reasonable advice to me, but you have responded as if it was posted on PD rather than CC :(

You are in an awkward position. Your original post highlighted that you understood that renting from a friend, especially an "amateur" landlord was not ideal. In your last post you have started to conflate three different arguments, two of which appear to be red herrings:

1) Your landlord needs to give proper notice and you as a tenant have rights and obligations re termination of the rental - perfectly fair and you seem to be acting honourably in bringing your landlord up to speed.

2) There are electrical problems: yes these need sorting out, but they have no bearing on the termination date of your lease.

3) You may be unable to secure appropriate accommodation before the end of the legal lease. This is not your landlord's (legal) problem!


1. Agree.
2. This was dspp's accusation. I don't think I ever suggested it had a bearing on termination date. I meant that it adds to the tension and complexity and emotion of the situation and there is a risk people will conflate the issues. I know and accept that logically they are separate. Emotionally they may not be. This is CC as you say.
3. It becomes LLs' problem if they hope we will be out on a particular date and we are not. So sorry, they are related.

You've started to discuss moving out with your friend. That's good, but it sounds like you need to have more discussion. What is it that he thinks you're "doing to him"? (Does he have hopes for a sale that you're putting at risk? Whilst that's his problem, not yours, understanding it will help you understand him and his point of view, as well as what is driving his negotiation position).

We'd like to have this discussion and have invited it but are waiting for them. They have relationship troubles so are struggling to speak to each other, let alone us.

Ideally, you would find a replacement property that meets all your needs and is available when you need it. As you've implied from your OP, this is very unlikely, so you need to figure out plan B. That's going to involve compromise, so it's important to start prioritising and working out your red lines.

If moving in less-than-ideal circumstances, you may need to make a 2-stage transition: the first to secure accommodation that meets at least your minimum requirements, followed by a more leisurely and considered move to one that meets all or most of your desired objectives.

Agree. But note, we don't feel compelled to dance to someone else's tune. If you don't understand what I mean by that, happy to explain.

In the meantime, how you deal with this is up to you, but beware: just because you don't shrink from conflict doesn't mean other people are as logical and objective about resolving issues. Sometimes it's better to take a step back and look at the emotional side, not just the facts. Your friend (whom you know much better than us posters) may respond very differently to stress pressure than you. It's worth thinking about what will work (from a persuasion aspect) for them, not just cold logic or legal rights.

Yes, that's why I've posted here, not on "Legal Issues". I'm sufficiently informed on the legal aspects, but find the relationship side harder.

Despite the above, one thing that may help both of you might be to lay out a timeline of events. The law and the contract will determine what triggers kick off which count-down clocks with respect to your leave date. There will be a no-contest pathway and a series of delayed options. Perhaps presenting your landlord with earliest, latest and most-likely leaving timescales would help set their expectations, whilst also allowing them to explain what and why their timeline may be different. You have the law on your side, but you also have your friend's "agenda" which will be driven by some other time-line. Knowing this may help your own decision making.

Thank you, this confirms our thinking, but again, awaiting the discussion with the landlords. In our estimation, it would have been nicer for them to invite us to chat with them in the first place rather than send a "Be out by xx/xx/xx" letter out of the blue. But we are where we are...

In a more ideal situation, you wouldn't have to do this: it would all be by properly served legal notice and not up for discussion, but you are where you are...


Oh, that's what I just said too!

Thanks, VRD, I think we are on the same page here.

GS

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Re: Delicate path to tread

#150416

Postby GoSeigen » July 6th, 2018, 10:40 am

dspp wrote:GS,

My apologies if I have upset you, that was not the intention.

Thanks, accepted, no hard feelings, and sorry if I over-reacted or misunderstood.

My answer was not without some experience of your issues. I was a tenant in the UK for about ten years solid through until maybe six years ago. Sometimes formally, sometimes informally, and not always in perfect building stock. I am currently a landlord, with live-in lodgers in my own home, with proper contracts in place (albeit very short form). I once had a rural tenancy approximately near Ascot so I am aware how tricky it can be to find good rural property in a desirable area. As a tenant I hated agencies and their behaviours.

Yes I have given people notice, and for that matter received it (though the latter was in a business context, with rearguard action fought !).

My understanding of law is iffy in this area, as I only know enough to deal with & relearn each situation as it arises. However at heart I feel this is best not treated as being a legal problem, hence the comments I made.

Thanks, that's a useful background. The legal situation very briefly is this: creation of a tenancy gives the tenant the right to occupy for as long as the rent is paid, etc. The only legal ways for the landlord to obtain possession are: a) agree with the tenant to be released from his obligations, or b) apply to the court for a possession order; the landlord can only make a successful application to the court if he has followed the correct legal procedure giving notice of his intention to do so.

So a couple of points:
-my desire for the landlord to be informed and act legally is both so that we are clear what he intends AND so that he doesn't needlessly prejudice his own position (this is the friend-looking-out-for-a-friend bit).
-I understand that ideally legality shouldn't enter it. I'd rather go for route a), a negotiated parting of ways, but sadly the landlord presented us with neither a fishy route a nor a fowl route b, but a messy amateur landlord route c. :)

I sense that the best resolution to your problem is to look at it as being a "find a new home" problem, rather than a "stay in old home for as long as possible" problem. Therefore, given what you have said about difficulty in finding property, it strikes me that you need to focus your creativity on changing the boundary conditions around the new property so as to give yourself the best chance. After all the ideal solution for you is to have a vacant property ready for immediate entry.

We certainly are doing that as alluded to in the OP. We may even be able to move early, in which case we want the opportunity to stop paying rent as soon as we vacate...

The other things I'm considering are what-ifs: maybe my mistake, but I prefer second, third and fourth bases to be covered or at least considered.

If it helps, when I was in the Ascot area one of the keys to opening up the renting market sufficiently to get the type of property we wished, whilst still having access to the particular school we wanted for our daughter, was the acceptance of a 40-min commute from home to school. It was a real drag to do this each day, but it delivered a solution for us. Your circumstances will be different, but is this not the most fruitful place to focus your efforts ?


All things are possible, not all are desirable. Why people subject their family to a worse outcome when they don't have to, simply because a LL can't be bothered to follow his own contract? Forgive me if I draw a topical parallel: "We couldn't be bothered to read the contract or the law so Aviva ordinary shareholders should pay up for our mistaken investments".

;-)

GS

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Re: Delicate path to tread

#151364

Postby PaulBullet » July 10th, 2018, 7:23 am

1. LL has given "notice" that is not actually valid notice either legally or under the tenancy terms.


Why do you think they have not given valid notice

My understanding of an AST is that they have to give notice on a rent day and it must be 2 months.

I think an AST cannot be less than 6 months but you are beyond that now

Paul

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Re: Delicate path to tread

#151373

Postby GoSeigen » July 10th, 2018, 8:27 am

PaulBullet wrote:
1. LL has given "notice" that is not actually valid notice either legally or under the tenancy terms.


Why do you think they have not given valid notice

My understanding of an AST is that they have to give notice on a rent day and it must be 2 months.

I think an AST cannot be less than 6 months but you are beyond that now

Paul


It's just a letter telling us to move by a particular date. Landlords are required to give notice using the prescribed Form 3 or Form 6a.

Regarding the fixed period, the contract is 12 months with a six-month break. So for the purposes of Section 21 I am not sure whether notice between the six and twelve month mark is considered to still be within the fixed period (meaning only Section 8 notice available to the LL). My guess is that a break clause allows the Landlord to use S21 but the contract is not yet periodic.

I asked for people's views on this earlier in the thread but no responses so far...

GS

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Re: Delicate path to tread

#151376

Postby vrdiver » July 10th, 2018, 8:40 am

GoSeigen wrote:Regarding the fixed period, the contract is 12 months with a six-month break. So for the purposes of Section 21 I am not sure whether notice between the six and twelve month mark is considered to still be within the fixed period (meaning only Section 8 notice available to the LL). My guess is that a break clause allows the Landlord to use S21 but the contract is not yet periodic.

I asked for people's views on this earlier in the thread but no responses so far...

GS

Might be worth posting a link to this thread over on "Legal Issues" so as to gain an additional audience that might be able to answer specific questions like this one (I haven't, as you posted specifically on CC).

Cheers
VRD

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Re: Delicate path to tread

#151637

Postby beeswax » July 10th, 2018, 10:35 pm

GS, I'm sorry that I have no experience to be able to help but two questions jumped up in my mind that you don't need to answer..

One is why have you stayed in that place for 6 months knowing it was not safe to live in re electricity etc?

Second that you may NOT wish to answer and I ask it only because of your vast knowledge and experience in financial matters as posted on these boards...How come you have been renting all those properties and not buying somewhere? People that are flexible and mobile with jobs in various places on short term contracts probably do that and may be the case with you but isn't it financially better to buy somewhere and get the rise in values in prices that you wouldn't get by renting?

I think Redsturgeon's advice is pretty good that you both sit down and talk it through..

I was confused initially as thought you were talking about a third party and not yourself and not sure even now if that's the case...Possibly referring to friend and LL landlord threw me? Not that changes your questions though?

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Re: Delicate path to tread

#151650

Postby GoSeigen » July 10th, 2018, 11:32 pm

beeswax wrote:GS, I'm sorry that I have no experience to be able to help but two questions jumped up in my mind that you don't need to answer..

One is why have you stayed in that place for 6 months knowing it was not safe to live in re electricity etc?


Fair question, but in general one does not know these things: you suspect, or have a hunch or worry,while your normal life goes on -- and then something happens which confirms your fears. And then you insist on a full safety check and find that your worries were justified and you breathe a sigh of relief that you'd made a nuisance of yourself in order to get it all checked out.

Second that you may NOT wish to answer and I ask it only because of your vast knowledge and experience in financial matters as posted on these boards...How come you have been renting all those properties and not buying somewhere? People that are flexible and mobile with jobs in various places on short term contracts probably do that and may be the case with you but isn't it financially better to buy somewhere and get the rise in values in prices that you wouldn't get by renting?


Very similar answer to the first. I suspected and feared and had a hunch some 14 years ago that property was over-priced in the UK. Happen to live in the SE so that hunch turned out not to be too clever. Even so, if you look at the house we occupy as tenants: the landlords bought it in 2006 and are selling it now for 33% more. That's a whopping growth rate of 2.4% pa.Gross rental yield on this home is 2.5% -- plus LL pays to maintain it...
If I told you that our (non-property) investment return over that period has been more than 10%pa, then perhaps you will see why we stuck to renting rather than buying. Furthermore, renting has given us the flexibility to take two full years off to travel with the kids, which was priceless.


I think Redsturgeon's advice is pretty good that you both sit down and talk it through..

I was confused initially as thought you were talking about a third party and not yourself and not sure even now if that's the case...Possibly referring to friend and LL landlord threw me? Not that changes your questions though?


I agree, it needs to be discussed. We just are not in the mood to initiate it right now.

Sorry about the confusion -- I did set the scene initially in the third person in an attempt to present it neutrally. Our family are the tenants, the landlord's family is close to our family (e.g. our kids and theirs were at school together, we have many friends in common).


GS

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Re: Delicate path to tread

#151651

Postby Alaric » July 10th, 2018, 11:40 pm

GoSeigen wrote:If I told you that our (non-property) investment return over that period has been more than 10%pa, then perhaps you will see why we stuck to renting rather than buying.


For many of us, the security of tenure argument wins out. If you own, you cannot be thrown out by legal small print. It's a form of gearing to rent, that you rely on the returns from investing the capital outside the housing market exceeding the rent. As with all gearing it can both work well and fail badly.


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