Crow learning

[Sorcery]

We recently purchase bird feeders and seeds and installed it near the house. Great success in attracting small birds. I finally know what a goldfinch looks like for real! They are burning a hole in my pocket mind.

There is a crow nesting site at the bottom of my garden, impossibly windy (I would of thought), 300 feet up over a 1 in 3 slope, for context. Three of said crows have taken an interest in the feeders. Their presence scares off all the other birds for the duration. The crows are trying to feed from the feeders. I have seen one try and use the stands on the feeder but it doesn't have space to get low enough. I have seen another(?) stand on top of the feeder and try and get in from the top. Once I found the feeder on the ground presumably having been lifted off it's stand. There is one that enters high vegetation to root around at the base of the feeders for dropped seeds. I know the crow family are supposed to be clever but that's seriously clever.
Their continued presence (weeks in overall non continuous duration) suggests they are getting something for their efforts. It also suggests they are learning about a food source from other bird species activity.

[kiloran]

We get jackdaws feeding off our peanut feeder through most of the day, hanging on as if they were bluetits. Also the odd crow though they struggle somewhat due to their greater size. The crows also eat bits of bread we throw out, and if the bread is deemed to be too stale, the crows dunk it in the bird bath for a bit to soften it up. Smart birds.

--kiloran

[Breelander]

Crows and Jackdaws are both Corvids, well known as being highly intelligent....

The genus Corvus, including the jackdaws, crows, rooks, and ravens, makes up over a third of the entire family.
Corvids display remarkable intelligence for animals of their size...

...The brain-to-body weight ratios of corvid brains are among the largest in birds, equal to that of most great apes and cetaceans, and only slightly lower than a human.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvidae#Intelligence

[midnightcatprowl]

I volunteer for a Wildlife Rescue and the volunteers are under strict instructions not to talk to or interact, except for strictly necessary reasons, with any of the Corvid family.

This may sound odd but it is a 'natural' thing to talk to birds and animals while trying to clean them out, provide fresh food or hand feed them if babies, weigh them if needed, give medications, etc etc. The thing is that no matter how nice you are to a blackbird or a swift or a weasel or a hedgehog it remains a wild thing (the weasel will have your fingertip off any time it can too) and when released they don't hang around to say thank you they are off and they put as much distance between those revolting bipeds and themselves as fast as they can. Corvids unfortunately, being so highly intelligent and also very sociable birds, find humans very interesting and given a chance will become very fond of interacting with them. The catch is that this may lead them to approach humans after release not necessarily looking for food but simply looking for interaction, sadly there are some nasty folk out there and such approaches can lead to disaster.

So sadly it is no chat and no interact with corvids and it is remarkably difficult. That cage full of adolescent starlings are horrified by your approach, the hedgehog curls up, the weasel attacks, the swift has no interest in the earth bound. In contrast the young jackdaw in the cage next to the one you are cleaning out is right up there at the front watching your every move and 'talking' and doing everything it can to get a response from you even though it only encountered humans for the first time yesterday after falling down a chimney and getting stuck behind a gas fire.

[UncleEbenezer]

Crows and Jackdaws are both Corvids, well known as being highly intelligent....

I think other posters here are aware of that.

But associating different corvids on lemon fool can get you slapped down. viewtopic.php?f=64&t=7095

[sg31]

We have bird feeders and crows. They are indeed most resourceful and determined in their efforts for a free meal. They started by trying to eat the fat balls and square food blocks. It didn't take them long to find a way to open the top of the feeders and help themselves. We then tightened the catch so it was much more difficult to open.

They found out that lifting it of the stand and letting it drop to the floor would spring the catch open. We wired it to the stand, they undid the wire and dropped the feeder to the ground.

This was all happening in the early mornings in summer while we were still asleep. My wife decided to take the feeders in in the evening so they couldn't work undisturbed. After a few days they realised the feeders went out shortly after we opened the bedroom curtains, they then took to congregating on the extension roof outside our bedroom window and cawing loudly. As soon as our bedroom curtains opened they would line up on the edge of the roof waiting for the feeders to go out.

I'm sure they could get more food elsewhere but it's become a game they seem to enjoy as much as we do. I could devise a way to stop them but it would spoil the fun. I just make things a little harder every time they up their game

Where we lived before there was a particular crow who liked to torment the local fox. The fox would sit out in the horse paddock and the crow would land nearby. He would casually approach the fox as if unaware of his existence, the fox would wait for him to get within range then pounce hoping for a free meal. The crow was always too quick and would escape. Then he would repeat the trick time and time again Eventually the fox would realise he was out done and would ignore the crow. To take things further the crow would sneak up behind the fox and tweak his tail. This could go on for ages until the thoroughly demoralised fox would slink away.

This was repeated numerous times over a period of several weeks. I don't understand what the crow got out of it other than devilment.

[XFool]

One thing I have noticed about crows is they can see you are there.

All birds react to a human presence, but most seem to react to movement. If you are very still they either ignore you or can't even detect you. Crows can obviously just see you.

[Sorcery]

One thing I have noticed about crows is they can see you are there.
All birds react to a human presence, but most seem to react to movement. If you are very still they either ignore you or can't even detect you. Crows can obviously just see you.

Not noticed that. The feeder is in my sight for as long as I am working on the computer. They don't seem phased by me being there, if I stand up or move location they are off though.

I'm sure they could get more food elsewhere but it's become a game they seem to enjoy as much as we do. I could devise a way to stop them but it would spoil the fun. I just make things a little harder every time they up their game

Yes it's fun watching them, difficult to think about their motives without anthropomorphising but they seem to treat it as a puzzle to be solved with a kind of conceit that if those little finches and tits can get fed, us superior crows can too. I think I would like to devise something like the mission impossible squirrel task (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aY9GBl7UmVs) but for crows. Thinking about putting a chicken carcass under a heavy dome tied to a pulley that will lift the dome if another crow sits on the counterweight. Might be a problem for the feeding crow if the dome descends on it, after the counterweight crow flies off, however. More thought required

[Breelander]

I think I would like to devise something like the mission impossible squirrel task (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aY9GBl7UmVs) but for crows...

Like this, you mean?
YouTube: Are crows the ultimate problem solvers? - Inside the Animal Mind - BBC

[Sorcery]

Was thinking about the rat problem if I left the cooked remains of a chicken dinner outside.
As if on cue, a large brown rat (but I hope it's a water vole) appeared on my patio near the feeders. Think I can now now tell the difference having looked it up but cannot remember those details, it was in view for only a few seconds.
Crows are back as I type, they can eat the rat if they want.

[colin]

Be nice to the Dark Ones and they may reward you.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-31604026

[UncleEbenezer]

Be nice to the Dark Ones and they may reward you.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-31604026

A latter-day Hrafnsmál!

Their cousins have the greater powers. But those are indeed the common brethren of the Hrafnaguð's companions.

[supremetwo]

Their continued presence (weeks in overall non continuous duration) suggests they are getting something for their efforts. It also suggests they are learning about a food source from other bird species activity.

They learn about food sources from their own.

Our local gang of corvids have one or two swing on the bird feeders while the rest gather noisily below for the spoils.

The adult magpies chase the jackdaws and rooks or each other away until the pair of big crows chase them off.

Four young magpies excitedly gathered labels from pots and sticks from the veggie patch and made a stash under the holly bush.

[Corvid]

Bloody patronising humans. You think I can't use a laptop?

[colin]

I recall an article concerning crows which had mastered a technique for stealing fish caught by otters on Scottish beaches. Otter catches fish and comes ashore to eat it, one crow lands in front one follows behind the otter and pecks its tail, otter drops fish and spins round at which point the crow in front pinches the fish and they both fly off, pretty smart eh? expect them to be seen playing Find the lady in Oxford Street soon.

[Leothebear]

I've been feeding the crows my fussy cat's leftovers for quite a time now, perhaps 3 years. I whistle and two in particular appear usually immediately.
They remain extremely wary though. They accept my food but that's as far as any trust goes. They don't even like it if my face appears at the window.
Ungrateful bastards.

[Sorcery]

Crow vending machine skills 'redefine intelligence'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44654098

Yes I noticed that news too. The assumption that birds learn from other birds (perhaps especially their own species) is an idea I have held since I was a first year psychology undergraduate. We were encouraged to do experiments on animals including birds. It seemed obvious at the time that since birds don't get to learn from the mother while they were in the egg, the majority of their learning would be once hatched and I and others speculated that it was imitative behavior. Did an experiment with other people to try and prove it on pigeons. Unfortunately we did not have a lot of pigeons (you don't want them if they have been in an experiment before). The idea was that pigeons who have lost 10% of their weight through controlled dieting would be extremely motivated to find food sources. We placed pigeons in a standard learning box (I think designed by Skinner, a famous behavioral learning psychologist) where they could press a button to obtain food. We tested some with no visual experience of other birds feeding and timed and graphed their learning curve. We tested others who gained no food but had the opportunity to watch other pigeons learning how to get food and graphed their learning curve.
The pigeons with visual experience seemed to learn a lot quicker. It was not statistically significant (we only had 3 pigeons in each category). I calculated that if we had used 4 in each category it would have been significant. To me that's strong evidence that birds learn from watching each other.

The news seems to be that crows are a little different and remember tools they have used before.

I don't fill my bird feeders during the summer, late spring or early autumn. When I was feeding birds earlier in the year the crows went to incredible lengths to get at the feeders. They could have used the "set the feeder swinging tactic" and collect what has fallen out. However one or two seemed to adopt a different approach. They hooked one leg's claws around the handle to the feeder (that attaches to whatever the feeder is hanging from) and fed upside down to pick out the seeds they wanted. My suspicion is that they had noticed the activity from smaller tits and finches and decided they wanted some of that (hence inter species learning). They came up with a completely new way of getting to the feeder that suited their greater size however.

Remarkable really imho.

[poundcoin]

I've been feeding the crows my fussy cat's leftovers for quite a time now, perhaps 3 years. I whistle and two in particular appear usually immediately.
They remain extremely wary though. They accept my food but that's as far as any trust goes. They don't even like it if my face appears at the window.
Ungrateful bastards.

You are not alone Leo we have two exactly the same that have visited us for years , they hang out most of the time in a neighbours huge oak tree but are the most timid of all the birds that visit .
Blackbirds and Jackdaws virtually knock on the door for scraps but the crows never get nearer than two thirds the way down the garden . If we throw something to them they won't go near it until I assume a retreating head bowed stance . Stand staring at them and they usually fly off unfed .....you would have thought after all this time they would have learnt to trust us .

[Leothebear]

Just recently I heard persistent squawking coming from the front drive. I looked from an upstairs window to see my cat Charlie sitting and paying no attention whatsoever to a crow, literally inches behind him, making this awful racket. I assume it had a nest nearby and objected to Charlie's presence.

The crow was obviously trying to pluck up courage to have a peck at Charlie's tail but couldn't quite manage it. So the crow just kept on shouting at him from point blank range and Charlie kept ignoring it, didn't even turn to look at it (and he isn't deaf).

This went on for quite a while - a shame I couldn't have filmed it. It was very funny.

[kiloran]

Just recently I heard persistent squawking coming from the front drive. I looked from an upstairs window to see my cat Charlie sitting and paying no attention whatsoever to a crow, literally inches behind him, making this awful racket. I assume it had a nest nearby and objected to Charlie's presence.

The crow was obviously trying to pluck up courage to have a peck at Charlie's tail but couldn't quite manage it. So the crow just kept on shouting at him from point blank range and Charlie kept ignoring it, didn't even turn to look at it (and he isn't deaf).

This went on for quite a while - a shame I couldn't have filmed it. It was very funny.

I had similar squawking from my lawn yesterday. A "baby" jackdaw bleating "Mummy, mummy, I want some food". Mum and baby were sitting in the middle of a pile of chopped apple I had thrown out. Mum picked up pieces of apple and placed them in baby's mouth, because baby had not learnt to do it itself. And baby was as big as mum, just a bit fluffier, and one hell of a lot noisier. What a racket.

--kiloran