Dod's farewell.

[melonfool]

...it has been AGREED that ULV is and can be discussed...

Even when it leaves the FFTSE100 after its reorganisation is complete? Like Santander, it will be fully traded on the London stock exchange, but no longer included in the index despite qualifying on size. Strict application of the 'must be in the FT350' rule would seem to make it impossible to discuss.

Why would you want to reopen this discussion?

It has been settled - it is fine to discuss ULV on HYP. I don't know how it can be said any more clearly.

There was a disagreement between the mods, but the quote you have posted was discussed and settled weeks ago, on this board - have a scroll. There is also a much earlier thread where it was agreed it could be discussed, again on this board.

We all agreed that ULV is fine on HYP. The 'rules' on HYP say [something like] current shares or shares that have in the past been HYP. Covers it, no? Answers your question above? Written in the rules, on the board.

Mel

[IanTHughes]

There are a lot of misnomers in HYP, the rigid guidelines to be frank are stupid.

What rigid guidelines?

Unilever is clearly not HYP and DOD is correct, yet I would expect is in the majority of portfolios.

Shares are not divided into HYP and Non-HYP. Any share might be High Yield one day and Low yield the next day, so what? The "HYP Practical board is just what it says on the tin. A board for discussing the Practicalities of running an HYP Portfolio.

So, if you want to talk about a particular share selection, it is not appropriate to discuss the merits of a share that is not currently High Yield. But that does not mean that other HYPers might not have said share in their portfolios, bought when it was High Yield. It would be perfectly reasonable to discuss the management of a portfolio that contained such a share. In fact I am fairly certain that many shares in HYP Portfolios bought over the years are no longer High Yield and would not be selected today

If you want to talk about Value Investing or Trading in and out of the market, do it on another board! If you believe in chasing total return or capital increase, post on another board, please! In fact, if you have any criticism of the HYP Strategy, do it on a more appropriate board!

Moderator Message:
Personal comments removed
Gryff

Ian

[melonfool]

I don't like football, so I don't go on the football board and tell them football is rubbish.

If I want to talk about a mix of sport, I would go on a general sports board.

But, oddly, I don't feel *excluded* from the football board. I know that if I wanted to talk about football, I could join in. But, if I did join in, it would have to be following the norms of that board, and to talk about football.

Mel

[Lootman]

I don't like football, so I don't go on the football board and tell them football is rubbish.

Correct, and I don't think many people come to a HY board and suggest that investing for yield is rubbish.

But to go back to your football analogy, what if someone wants to talk about 5-a-side football, or rugby football, or American football, or Australian rules football or Gaelic football? Are they all welcome? Or do we tell them that's not "real" football? And maybe set up a second board for "other kinds of football", along with pages of rules to guide them about what is real football.

Then what if the "real" Football board only wants to discuss Premier League sides. If a side used to be in the Premier League then it is still OK to discuss, even if that was 15 years ago and is now reduced to amateur status. But a team that has never been in the Premier League cannot be discussed even if it is really good and shows great promise.

Seems to me, that is the kind of debates that keep coming up here, and never seem to go away no matter how many times people claim it is resolved.

[IanTHughes]

I don't like football, so I don't go on the football board and tell them football is rubbish.

Correct, and I don't think many people come to a HY board and suggest that investing for yield is rubbish.

No, but many people do come to the "High Yield Portfolios (HYP) - Practical" board to discuss the merits of other strategies. Whether those strategies are High Yield or not, if they are not HYP, they should be discussed elsewhere.

Am I wrong?


Ian

[melonfool]

You are right Ian.

It's oblique but it's enough to be disruptive.

Things like "I know this isn't an HYP share but...." or "well, yield is all very well but obviously we all need to consider capital as well...." and so on. People who want to follow the HYP strategy, as defined, find this very wearying. Then referring to people who follow it, or the strategy itself, in disparaging terms, it goes on and on.

But, this is not new, this has gone on since time began. When you ask people not to do it, they wail they feel unwelcome - why do they WANT to feel welcome there? They clearly have different ideas - so go and discuss them on the strategies boards, or other investment ideas, or shares. There are enough boards, why is this one the one everyone wants to play on but not follow the rules? The other boards have far fewer rules and you can discuss yield on them *as well*!

Mel

[csearle]

There is something sick about the way this thread has been immediately 'parked' imho, a farewell thread of thanks should have been left where it originated, something is rotten...

I think it was a simple application of the rules, which allows this sort of discussion here but not on a board dedicated to the discussion of practical aspects of HYP strategy - nothing particularly sinister at all.

It is the application of those rules that steers the course of The Lemon Fool,

I too hope Dod will resume posting. He is clearly a well-respected poster. Actually I am saddened when anyone stops posting, even those (unlike Dod) whose departure elicits a good riddance from some. I would like TLF to be a place where no-one, be it because of fellow posters or moderation, feels the need to depart.

Regards,
Chris

[gryffron]

Moderator Message:
A large number of personal comments have been removed. I won't message you each directly to explain which. It would take too long.

The rules on the High Yield - Practical Board are strict, and they're there for a purpose. That board is to discuss implementation of a strict LTBH High Yield strategy. That subject alone generates plenty of traffic.

Discussion of whether that strategy is a correct or appropriate one, or suggestions for "improvements", can take place on the HY-General Board. Any such discussion on the HY-Practical board is inappropriate, and WILL be moderated away. Either by shifting or deleting.

Please all calm down.

[moorfield]

There are enough boards, why is this one the one everyone wants to play on but not follow the rules? The other boards have far fewer rules and you can discuss yield on them *as well*!

Because it's the board at the top of the list Mel.. It may sound an outre idea, but move HYP Practical down into the backwaters where it perhaps belongs see viewtopic.php?p=103787#p103787
At least try it for a month and see if it changes your board visitor stats significantly.

By the way, I counted just now 17 of the 25 threads on the first page of HYP Practical are company updates, interim or finals etc. Would Doris ever bother reading those? They can be useful to initiate discussion of (and, often, rows about the HYPability of) individual companies, - do they really belong there?

[IanTHughes]

Moderator Message:
Personal comments removed
Gryff

Oh woe is me, woe is me!

I wonder, should I threaten to:

"Never darken these boards again!"

DOD1010 and Walrus, what do you think?


Ian

[tjh290633]

It has been customary for the dividend announcement for an HYP share to be posted, which is helpful for anyone who has missed it. There are a lot of other RNS posts which are essentially superfluous, but may be of interest.

On TMF we had individual company boards, which were perhaps a better place to post such other messages. However the posting of dividend details is a valuable contribution.

TJH

[melonfool]

There are enough boards, why is this one the one everyone wants to play on but not follow the rules? The other boards have far fewer rules and you can discuss yield on them *as well*!

Because it's the board at the top of the list Mel.. It may sound an outre idea, but move HYP Practical down into the backwaters where it perhaps belongs see viewtopic.php?p=103787#p103787
At least try it for a month and see if it changes your board visitor stats significantly.

By the way, I counted just now 17 of the 25 threads on the first page of HYP Practical are company updates, interim or finals etc. Would Doris ever bother reading those? They can be useful to initiate discussion of (and, often, rows about the HYPability of) individual companies, - do they really belong there?

I always assumed they were just in alphabetical order, but I doubt people go there because it's at the top, but I'll make sure admins see that suggestion.

I agree with you re the company reports, I don't think they do belong there but also they are not doing any harm really (other than undermining the strategy of course...).

Mel

[beeswax]

I feel sorry for the Moderators actually and wonder they don't all resign on the basis they rarely get thanked and have better things to do..

I do think, me included that we tend to sulk if our posts get moderated in some way....

Surely we are all big enough to say OK lets all be friends and appreciate we are given free access to this forum and try and calm down a bit and would ask ALL those who have left or think of leaving to reconsider and say Ok lads and lasses, worse things happen at sea...Think of it as deleting our hard drive of things we can do better at next time..

I guess most of us are getting on a bit but acting like spoiled kids sometimes! .

[moorfield]

There are enough boards, why is this one the one everyone wants to play on but not follow the rules? The other boards have far fewer rules and you can discuss yield on them *as well*!

Because it's the board at the top of the list Mel.. It may sound an outre idea, but move HYP Practical down into the backwaters where it perhaps belongs see viewtopic.php?p=103787#p103787
At least try it for a month and see if it changes your board visitor stats significantly.

By the way, I counted just now 17 of the 25 threads on the first page of HYP Practical are company updates, interim or finals etc. Would Doris ever bother reading those? They can be useful to initiate discussion of (and, often, rows about the HYPability of) individual companies, - do they really belong there?

I always assumed they were just in alphabetical order, but I doubt people go there because it's at the top, but I'll make sure admins see that suggestion.

I agree with you re the company reports, I don't think they do belong there but also they are not doing any harm really (other than undermining the strategy of course...).

Mel

HYP is a specific mode or form of High Yield investing (indeed HYSS describes itself already as "General Discussions"). What I'm getting at is other forums I visit tend to list the more general discussions first, with the niche interest ones further down. Pistonheads is a good example - you'll see there "General Gassing" and "General Motorsport" have many many more hits than other conversations. One answer to your conundrum might be as simple as that.

[Arborbridge]

It has been customary for the dividend announcement for an HYP share to be posted, which is helpful for anyone who has missed it. There are a lot of other RNS posts which are essentially superfluous, but may be of interest.

On TMF we had individual company boards, which were perhaps a better place to post such other messages. However the posting of dividend details is a valuable contribution.

TJH

I agree: putting dividend and company notices on the HYP practical can be very usual and I hope it continues.

[Howard]

Can I suggest a reason for keeping tight moderation on the HYP board.

I enjoy reading about others experience investing for income. It’s a gentle discussion about investors experience aiming for sensible investment results. It’s very “British” with its generally calm atmosphere.

Moderation stops “clever dicks” coming into a HYP discussion and telling us how much money they made investing in Amazon when it was only 50c. Or implying that investors who kept their shares in Tesco are fools because anyone could have predicted that the management were hopeless. Moderation also stops people ramping shares because the long term income objective is paramount.

It’s also interesting to read a discussion of growth shares and total return, but on a different thread with a different ethos.

Dod’s HYP posts made interesting reading, but he couldn’t resist pushing the boundaries. I hope he re-considers as he has some valuable contributions to make.

Hopefully others agree that if the HYP board is allowed to be a free-for-all, the Lemon Fool will lose some of its appeal and its unique character.

regards

Howard

[Alaric]

What I'm getting at is other forums I visit tend to list the more general discussions first, with the niche interest ones further down.

I'd be inclined to agree, move it to the bottom alongside "Other Investing"

That's particularly because to a newcomer the generic description doesn't warn them of the near religious fervour and flame wars they may encounter if they ask a more general question about investing for income.

[csearle]

What I'm getting at is other forums I visit tend to list the more general discussions first, with the niche interest ones further down.

I think this idea may have merit. Worth an experiment at any rate. Surely it can't do much harm as we enthusiasts (dare I say followers) will find the High Yield Portfolios (HYP) - Practical board wherever it is.

Somehow it still, despite all our efforts, does not seem to be clear that the board is more-or-less reserved for a particular popular strategy and that if the discussion wanders away from said strategy too far or for too long it is game for moving.

Personally I wish religion had never been invented*, but I don't burst into churches telling them they are all gullible idiots. So providing posters accept this with respect to the High Yield Portfolios (HYP) - Practical board then it shouldn't be too difficult to rub along.

Regards,
Chris

* I read something on TMF which, IMO rightly, argues for religion inasmuch that a lot of our culture and architecture would not exist without it.

[Alaric]

So providing posters accept this with respect to the High Yield Portfolios (HYP) - Practical

It's probably the use of the TLA (three letter abbreviation) that causes the problem. The term HYP has no general financial meaning, so its context isn't clear. Leave out, or not notice, the TLA and the title might be interpreted as "higher yield portfolios (practical)", thus of interest to anyone who was an income seeking investor either with a view to reinvesting or living off it.

Perhaps a board "TMF legacy - HYP" would be better.

[Lootman]

So providing posters accept this with respect to the High Yield Portfolios (HYP) - Practical

It's probably the use of the TLA (three letter abbreviation) that causes the problem. The term HYP has no general financial meaning, so its context isn't clear. Leave out, or not notice, the TLA and the title might be interpreted as "higher yield portfolios (practical)", thus of interest to anyone who was an income seeking investor either with a view to reinvesting or living off it.

Perhaps a board "TMF legacy - HYP" would be better.

You might be onto something there, particularly your observation that "The term HYP has no general financial meaning". I suspect that every other investment strategy discussed here is "mainstream", in the sense that you can probably find websites devoted to it, books written about it and myriad references to it on Twitter, in the financial press and so on. Even something practiced by a relative minority - technical analysis - has its sites, books and is regularly quoted or presented on CNBC and Bloomberg.

Compared with that HYP is like home-brewed beer. There is no external reference to it in the investment media. Rather it is a body of folklore, musings and anecdotes that are collectively assembled as a strategy almost exclusively as the result of one site (TMF) and one individual who (sometimes shamelessly) promoted it. It is local to the UK and focused on about 3% of the global equity universe. As such it is a little like an endangered species, and may well die off in a decade or two as the retirees who are its main followers die off and younger folks instead prefer other and racier approaches.

And i mean none of that as a criticism, but rather as an attempt to understand why HYP should enjoy the special status of having its own board, where dividend-based strategies that are even slightly different are bounced to another board. No other strategy here enjoys that exalted status and protection.

So perhaps this special treatment is justified because, without it, and absent Bland's marketing and the financial interest of TMF behind it, it would otherwise wither on the vine. Moreover it doesn't seem to change or develop, as most strategies do. Partly because criticism is shunted elsewhere, and partly because the original work and texts that developed it are seen as over-arching texts that cannot be too radically questioned.

So your idea that it be deemed a "legacy item" has merit. You could not sell it to BlackStone (believe me, I used to work there). But there is enough local, community support to desire and ensure its survival. If that justifies special treatment then so be it.