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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158810

Postby ursaminortaur » August 11th, 2018, 7:00 pm

beeswax wrote:I won't cut and paste the last couple of replies as it gets too cumbersome..

Just to say they sound like doom and gloom by leaving the Mother strings of the EU who all have our best interests at heart...These are the ones that won't agree to disclose their expenses and anyone notice that our Parliament is again following suit by not publishing MP's expenses anymore. Have they not learned their lesson yet? The Gravy train always seems to get back on track..

This is or was GREAT Britain who led the world in many things and so we are now content to let Brussels make the rules? As Lootman so rightly said, remainers are looking at a short term blip that may or indeed may not take place as we were supposed to be in recession now remember? We are saying it may take decades to get free of the EU and most of us will be dead by then and so WHY would the older generation vote for something they may never see and IF remainers can understand why, they may just realise why they voted the way they did..It was much easier for them to vote remain as they did in Scotland during the referendum there because their older generation thought their pensions were at risk etc..

Sadly they still can't get it!

If 160 countries that are not in the EU can make it on their own and would never sign up to the Brussels dictates then its despairing to see many British citizens thinking we need the EU to survive and be prosperous..


The European Union is, fairly obviously because of its name, only open to countries in Europe and most countries in Europe seem either to be members, practically be members ie EEA members and Switzerland with its multiple bilateral deals equating to EEA membership, or queuing up to join. If for some reason that criteria were dropped then I'd expect that a fair number of other countries around the world would like to join that queue.

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158811

Postby beeswax » August 11th, 2018, 7:14 pm

Is Turkey in Europe?

Just asking?

I don't watch the 'European Song Contest' anymore but I'm sure there are many coutries that send singers...Israel for example?

Ask Russia to join, that will solve a few problems and NATO can fold and save loads of billions in the process..I guess the French would still want it in order to fight the USA one day..

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158813

Postby supremetwo » August 11th, 2018, 7:24 pm

beeswax wrote:Ask Russia to join, that will solve a few problems and NATO can fold and save loads of billions in the process..I guess the French would still want it in order to fight the USA one day..

Since 1997 the EU's political and economic relations with Russia have been based on a Partnership and Cooperation Agreement (PCA). The Agreement aims to promote trade and investment and develop harmonious economic relations between the EU and Russia.

Since 2012, when Russia joined the WTO, EU-Russia trade relations have also been framed by WTO rules.

Russia is the EU's fourth largest trading partner and the EU is Russia's biggest trading partner.

EU-Russia trade has continuously decreased since 2012, dropping by 44% between 2012 and 2016 from €339 billion in 2012 to €191 billion in 2016.

Main EU exports to Russia: machinery, transport equipment, chemicals, medicines, manufactured products.
Main EU imports from Russia: raw materials, especially - oil (crude and refined), gas

The EU is the biggest investor in Russia.
Three quarters of Foreign Direct Investment stocks in Russia come from EU Member States, 30% from Cyprus alone

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countr ... dex_en.htm

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158815

Postby ursaminortaur » August 11th, 2018, 7:34 pm

beeswax wrote:Is Turkey in Europe?

Just asking?


It is partly in Europe and partly in Asia.

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/is-turkey-in-europe-or-asia.html


Turkey, by land mass, is positioned 95% in Asia and 5% in Europe. The Anatolia section covers the 95% while the 5% represents Thrace in the Balkan Peninsula located in Southeast Europe. Anatolia, also known as Asia Minor, Asiatic Turkey, or Anatolian Plateau, is a vast, rectangular peninsula between Europe and Asia. Anatolia has a mixed climate of fertile and semi-arid and the region is full of hills and mountains.Thrace is home to more than 10% of Turkey’s inhabitants, and Istanbul is its largest city while the capital, Ankara is in Asia. Istanbul is the third most densely settled city in Europe after Moscow and Paris. The Turkish Straits linking the Aegean Sea with the Black Sea separates Thrace in Europe and Anatolia in Asia. These Straits include the Bosphorus, Sea of Marmara, and the Dardanelles.



beeswax wrote:I don't watch the 'European Song Contest' anymore but I'm sure there are many coutries that send singers...Israel for example?

Ask Russia to join, that will solve a few problems and NATO can fold and save loads of billions in the process..I guess the French would still want it in order to fight the USA one day..


The Eurovision song contest is named after the European Broadcasting Union which despite the name includes broadcasters from a large number of countries outside of europe and a large number of associates.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Broadcasting_Union

The Eurovision Song Contest (French: Concours Eurovision de la Chanson)[19] is an annual international song competition between EBU Members, that was first held in Lugano, Switzerland, on 24 May 1956.


With enough democratic and human rights reforms Russia might someday indeed become an EU member. That day though is likely to be sometime even further in the future than Turkey joining.

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158816

Postby Sundance13 » August 11th, 2018, 7:52 pm

ap8889 wrote:https://quillette.com/2018/08/03/britains-populist-revolt/

Cross posted from Monevator, I thought this article was excellent, and sums up why I support Leave.



I read this earlier, it is a decent article so thank you AP for posting it, I confess however my initial reaction to reading it was ‘nice article, but do I care’!

What I mean by that is I’m aware there are lots of differing reasons why people voted leave, but the majority of them were negative/push factors and I suspect that’s why coming up with a feasible plan for the future has proven so difficult for leavers. It wasn’t a drive towards a positive vision, but an attempt to leave something they didn’t like.

What I’m interested in now is not why leavers voted leave, but what they and the Govts plan for the future is, how they intend to heal the countries divisions and how they propose to mitigate the likely economic damage of leaving. The obvious solution EEA, has been rejected by leavers & the Govt, so I’m keen to hear what their alternative plan is.

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158817

Postby Sundance13 » August 11th, 2018, 7:55 pm

beeswax wrote:I won't cut and paste the last couple of replies as it gets too cumbersome..

Just to say they sound like doom and gloom by leaving the Mother strings of the EU who all have our best interests at heart...These are the ones that won't agree to disclose their expenses and anyone notice that our Parliament is again following suit by not publishing MP's expenses anymore. Have they not learned their lesson yet? The Gravy train always seems to get back on track..

This is or was GREAT Britain who led the world in many things and so we are now content to let Brussels make the rules? As Lootman so rightly said, remainers are looking at a short term blip that may or indeed may not take place as we were supposed to be in recession now remember? We are saying it may take decades to get free of the EU and most of us will be dead by then and so WHY would the older generation vote for something they may never see and IF remainers can understand why, they may just realise why they voted the way they did..It was much easier for them to vote remain as they did in Scotland during the referendum there because their older generation thought their pensions were at risk etc..

Sadly they still can't get it!

If 160 countries that are not in the EU can make it on their own and would never sign up to the Brussels dictates then its despairing to see many British citizens thinking we need the EU to survive and be prosperous..

It's clear that if 300,000 people in one year come to the UK each one will need a home, a Doctor, a job, a school or college and that MUST be at the expense of the indigenous population...and if each one drives a car, then God help us if those numbers keep on...



It’s doom and gloom because there’s no plan Beeswax and we can see that with ideology increasingly trumping common sense, that the poop is gonna hit the fan next year unless something quickly changes.

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158819

Postby Lootman » August 11th, 2018, 8:27 pm

Sundance13 wrote: there are lots of differing reasons why people voted leave, but the majority of them were negative/push factors

That's interesting because offhand I cannot think of any argument more negative/push than "it's all too much trouble and hassle and risky and scary to leave, so let's not", which is essentially the Remain position.

Sundance13 wrote:how they intend to heal the countries divisions

If Remain had won 52/48 the nation would have been equally divided but nobody on the Remain camp would be asking "how to heal the nation's divisions". Just like they wouldn't be whining about wanting a second vote.

They wouldn't care about that; they would just be smug that they won and that the status quo continues. So why should Leavers or anyone else care about the divisions? We had a vote and one side lost. It's like losing anything. You suck it up, wipe away your tears and move on, trying to maintain a modicum of dignity along the way.

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158821

Postby Sundance13 » August 11th, 2018, 8:47 pm

Sundance13 wrote: there are lots of differing reasons why people voted leave, but the majority of them were negative/push factors

lootman wrote:That's interesting because offhand I cannot think of any argument more negative/push than "it's all too much trouble and hassle and risky and scary to leave, so let's not", which is essentially the Remain position.


If that was the Remain position you’d be correct, but it wasn’t. The Remain position was they were happy or reasonably happy with the status quo, so why risk it all and leave? What I would say though is they didn’t then formulate a strategy that demonstrated why they were happy with the status quo, they focussed to much on the risks of leaving. A bad mistake.

lootman wrote:
Sundance13 wrote:how they intend to heal the countries divisions


If Remain had won 52/48 the nation would have been equally divided but nobody on the Remain camp would be asking "how to heal the nation's divisions". Just like they wouldn't be whining about wanting a second vote.

They wouldn't care about that; they would just be smug that they won and that the status quo continues. So why should Leavers or anyone else care about the divisions? We had a vote and one side lost. It's like losing anything. You suck it up, wipe away your tears and move on, trying to maintain a modicum of dignity along the way.



Because like it or not we all live in the same country and a bitter & divided country isn’t a great place to live, nor will it likely be a very successful country going forwards.


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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158823

Postby Lootman » August 11th, 2018, 8:56 pm

Sundance13 wrote: like it or not we all live in the same country and a bitter & divided country isn’t a great place to live, nor will it likely be a very successful country going forwards.

But we were divided either way. What would the Remain side have done to heal that division? I submit - nothing.

Anyway we are divided in many ways, between rich and poor, Tory and Labour, old and young, Remain and Leave, homeowners and renters, managers and workers, urban and rural.

Whether Leaving is successful won't be known for years. But I do not believe that anything can heal divisions. They will just persist and people will complain forever. Isn't that normal?

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158824

Postby ursaminortaur » August 11th, 2018, 8:57 pm

Lootman wrote:
Sundance13 wrote: there are lots of differing reasons why people voted leave, but the majority of them were negative/push factors

That's interesting because offhand I cannot think of any argument more negative/push than "it's all too much trouble and hassle and risky and scary to leave, so let's not", which is essentially the Remain position.

Sundance13 wrote:how they intend to heal the countries divisions

If Remain had won 52/48 the nation would have been equally divided but nobody on the Remain camp would be asking "how to heal the nation's divisions". Just like they wouldn't be whining about wanting a second vote.

They wouldn't care about that; they would just be smug that they won and that the status quo continues. So why should Leavers or anyone else care about the divisions? We had a vote and one side lost. It's like losing anything. You suck it up, wipe away your tears and move on, trying to maintain a modicum of dignity along the way.


But Leave would have been fighting for another referendum


https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nigel-farage-wants-second-referendum-7985017

Nigel Farage warns today he would fight for a second referendum on Britain in Europe if the remain campaign won by a narrow margin next month.
The Ukip leader said a small defeat for his leave camp would be “unfinished business” and predicted pressure would grow for a re-run of the 23 June ballot.

Farage told the Mirror: “In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way. If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.”

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158825

Postby Lootman » August 11th, 2018, 9:03 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:
Lootman wrote:
Sundance13 wrote:how they intend to heal the countries divisions

If Remain had won 52/48 the nation would have been equally divided but nobody on the Remain camp would be asking "how to heal the nation's divisions". Just like they wouldn't be whining about wanting a second vote.

They wouldn't care about that; they would just be smug that they won and that the status quo continues. So why should Leavers or anyone else care about the divisions? We had a vote and one side lost. It's like losing anything. You suck it up, wipe away your tears and move on, trying to maintain a modicum of dignity along the way.

But Leave would have been fighting for another referendum

Quite possibly but it is highly unlikely it would have happened.

The only way I think these "divisions" would spill over into anarchy and a kind of civil war is if the government suddenly decided to do a 180 and stay in the EU. Such an affront to democracy and slap in the face to the will of the people could easily lead to a breakdown in our institutions and a much less governable nation.

And a second vote would just be a cowardly way of a government trying to bring that about whilst appearing not to.

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158826

Postby Sundance13 » August 11th, 2018, 9:06 pm

Lootman wrote:
Sundance13 wrote: like it or not we all live in the same country and a bitter & divided country isn’t a great place to live, nor will it likely be a very successful country going forwards.

But we were divided either way. What would the Remain side have done to heal that division? I submit - nothing.

Anyway we are divided in many ways, between rich and poor, Tory and Labour, old and young, Remain and Leave, homeowners and renters, managers and workers, urban and rural.

Whether Leaving is successful won't be known for years. But I do not believe that anything can heal divisions. They will just persist and people will complain forever. Isn't that normal?


Well remain probably wouldn’t have used the win as a mandate to push for an extreme interpretation of the result (Schengen/Euro) that wasn’t supported by a majority of the country.

You say we won’t know if Leave has been successful for years, but depends what you describe ‘successful’ as? What is your criteria for a successful Brexit?

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158828

Postby Spet0789 » August 11th, 2018, 9:10 pm

zico wrote:
That abandonment of poor Britons by rich Britons is corrosive to a people, to a nation.


Interesting debate here, and I agree with the above statement. To my mind, Western democratic "business-as-usual" capitalism suffered a huge blow when the greed of the rich elites broke the cycle of ever-increasing prosperity in 2007, and then - much worse in most people's eyes - the elite that had caused the collapse then got rich as a result of the recession, while everyone else became worse off, to varying degrees - some lost their jobs, others lost job security and others suffered wage freezes. David Cameron's phrase "We're all in it together" resonated - but not in a good way, as people could see it simply wasn't true. The rich got richer, and everyone else got poorer. People noticed, and thought "hang on a minute, this surely can't be right". It just didn't seem fair or equitable. People thought "something must be done" and the simpler the better.

The elite did what they usually do in these circumstances (i.e. protecting their interests) and found a scapegoat for people to focus on - in this case "foreigners" taking your money and jobs, and "foreigners in the EU" acting against the UK interests. Nice and simple, easy to sell, easy to believe (if you don't think about it too much) and appeals to people's natural mistrust of those outside their groups. The same tactic worked in the USA - everything wrong with the USA is the fault of foreigners taking advantage of kindly old weak America in their various dastardly foreigner ways, and if you just get a tough guy to stand up and tell the various foreigners in no uncertain terms to stop doing bad things, everything would be fine and dandy again.

As a result, rather than the question "Should we rebalance things by shaking up the tax system (including asset taxes) so the elite once again contribute a fair share like they did pre-crash?" being put to a referendum, we had the EU question instead. We could have had a referendum on the question "Do we need a big shake-up and some way to stick it to the fat cats?" and the response would have been similar, although with a much bigger "Yes" vote!

The irony of the current situation is that people want better living conditions and wages, but that's actually what the EU help to provide with their negotiating strength to push through trade deals and regulations which insulate EU members from the harsh realities of worldwide competition.

Going out into the big bad world of global competition means we'll have to compete properly with the likes of China, Hong Kong and Vietnam for business, and they have people who will work for far less than UK wages. People like Jacob Rees-Mogg have already suggested that to make a success of Brexit, the UK will need to reduce regulations and make labour "more competitive" (i.e. much lower wages and longer hours). "Taking back control" will end up as "giving away control". Amazingly, Hong Kong is seen by some as a good model for the UK to emulate - despite the fact that it's a terrible place to work and live if you aren't rich. This kind of Brexit will be great for business owners and shareholders, but at the expense of workers, particularly lower-skilled workers.

Brexit was certainly driven by people's dissatisfaction with the status quo and a desire that any change must be for the better. Personally, I think people have been well and truly led up the garden path, and it's a real shame.


Spot on. Good, thoughtful post.

I don’t dispute for a moment that many of the 52% have valid grievances with the status quo. But for many, leaving the EU will just make things worse. They were absolutely led up the garden path by an elite too wealthy to care.

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158836

Postby ursaminortaur » August 11th, 2018, 9:36 pm

Lootman wrote:
ursaminortaur wrote:
Lootman wrote:If Remain had won 52/48 the nation would have been equally divided but nobody on the Remain camp would be asking "how to heal the nation's divisions". Just like they wouldn't be whining about wanting a second vote.

They wouldn't care about that; they would just be smug that they won and that the status quo continues. So why should Leavers or anyone else care about the divisions? We had a vote and one side lost. It's like losing anything. You suck it up, wipe away your tears and move on, trying to maintain a modicum of dignity along the way.

But Leave would have been fighting for another referendum

Quite possibly but it is highly unlikely it would have happened.

The only way I think these "divisions" would spill over into anarchy and a kind of civil war is if the government suddenly decided to do a 180 and stay in the EU. Such an affront to democracy and slap in the face to the will of the people could easily lead to a breakdown in our institutions and a much less governable nation.

And a second vote would just be a cowardly way of a government trying to bring that about whilst appearing not to.


I doubt that remaining in the EU would result in anarchy. A more plausible route to anarchy would be a hard brexit where the Government really couldn't secure food supplies for the country

https://internationalman.com/articles/nine-meals-from-anarchy/

In 1906, Alfred Henry Lewis stated, “There are only nine meals between mankind and anarchy.” Since then, his observation has been echoed by people as disparate as Robert Heinlein and Leon Trotsky.

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158845

Postby beeswax » August 11th, 2018, 9:52 pm

Re read Lootman's post because its very good and illuminating and encapsulates what the divisions are in this country and that isn't going to be 'healed' by Brexit as you know the pigs always take over the trough. (Courtesy of George Orwell)..

It did show though that 52% ie 17.4 million were pissed off with the status quo and Professor Hennesy rightly said that no government has succeeded in getting more than 50% of the vote in a General Election since 1935 which is a hell of a long time, nearly a century and shows how fragile our democracy is and if we don't get a clean Brexit which most leavers if not all leavers voted for then who are they going to vote for at the next GE and that is why politics matter more than the economics...I think I read not long ago that we spend 35 billions on Quango's each year and so why not just do away with them all and build more social housing and give people at the bottom a huge tax break or increase in the minimum wage that will encourage more people into work...Every ex MP and certainly Cabinet Ministers seem to be on these Quangos and so there is a huge divide between the haves and have nots..

Name me one Quango that has repaired your pothole or bought you a loaf of bread? They are leeches and so is the HoL and so how much does that cost us...I wonder what people make of it when they see them all in their ermine? 300 pounds a day tax free for a few minutes attendance would feed most families for a week..

So Parliament and Labour especially need to reconsider their approach to the Brexit vote and then start to represent the average voter and not the privileged..When I read that almost any Director of any Company is awarded massive shares worth millions and maybe with that company a very short time despite a million plus salary to boot AND then a massive payout for failure, there is something very very wrong with our values..

It's the politicians that have got us all in this mess and they seem incapable of providing the solutions...Brexit is easy...We should have left the next week and then argued the toss afterwards and there was no way they would have stopped their half a trillion sales of goods here and grounded planes as they really did have more to lose than we did...But fancy us getting lumbered with the useless Teresa May that has failed in every job she has had and got it by default....It really is amazing even now that the public saw that when she lost a 20 point lead in the OP to a hung parliament...Brexit cannot and will not happen while she is still PM....But the Lords and ermine await her presence, we can only hope that is soon, very soon!

Lady Maydeadhead?

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158880

Postby Sundance13 » August 12th, 2018, 7:03 am

beeswax wrote:Re read Lootman's post because its very good and illuminating and encapsulates what the divisions are in this country and that isn't going to be 'healed' by Brexit as you know the pigs always take over the trough. (Courtesy of George Orwell)..

It did show though that 52% ie 17.4 million were pissed off with the status quo and Professor Hennesy rightly said that no government has succeeded in getting more than 50% of the vote in a General Election since 1935 which is a hell of a long time, nearly a century and shows how fragile our democracy is and if we don't get a clean Brexit which most leavers if not all leavers voted for then who are they going to vote for at the next GE and that is why politics matter more than the economics...I think I read not long ago that we spend 35 billions on Quango's each year and so why not just do away with them all and build more social housing and give people at the bottom a huge tax break or increase in the minimum wage that will encourage more people into work...Every ex MP and certainly Cabinet Ministers seem to be on these Quangos and so there is a huge divide between the haves and have nots..

Name me one Quango that has repaired your pothole or bought you a loaf of bread? They are leeches and so is the HoL and so how much does that cost us...I wonder what people make of it when they see them all in their ermine? 300 pounds a day tax free for a few minutes attendance would feed most families for a week..

So Parliament and Labour especially need to reconsider their approach to the Brexit vote and then start to represent the average voter and not the privileged..When I read that almost any Director of any Company is awarded massive shares worth millions and maybe with that company a very short time despite a million plus salary to boot AND then a massive payout for failure, there is something very very wrong with our values..

It's the politicians that have got us all in this mess and they seem incapable of providing the solutions...Brexit is easy...We should have left the next week and then argued the toss afterwards and there was no way they would have stopped their half a trillion sales of goods here and grounded planes as they really did have more to lose than we did...But fancy us getting lumbered with the useless Teresa May that has failed in every job she has had and got it by default....It really is amazing even now that the public saw that when she lost a 20 point lead in the OP to a hung parliament...Brexit cannot and will not happen while she is still PM....But the Lords and ermine await her presence, we can only hope that is soon, very soon!

Lady Maydeadhead?



Mike,

The only people who’ll benefit from Brexit are the priveliged, that’s why the Tories are backing it, particularly right wingers like Jacob Rees Mogg. They’ll all be cleaning up on the markets next March, if they push through the ‘no deal’, they are after and we see impacts on the financial markets.

Do you think the workers are going to benefit from a ‘no deal’ scenario, unilateral tariff removal or a deep FTA with the USA? Remember Donald Trump and his America 1st position. The working class will be the biggest losers.

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158907

Postby mutantpoodle » August 12th, 2018, 10:12 am

'''The only people who’ll benefit from Brexit are the priveliged, that’s why the Tories are backing it, ''

no they are backing it because it was what 17.4 m people voted for

if you look at the vote spread you can see that more 'TORY' constituencies voted REMAIN
and more 'Labour' voted LEAVE

so whatever the end outcome...its NOT because Tories want it!...just look at the balls up they making of negotiations...

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158919

Postby bionichamster » August 12th, 2018, 10:35 am

ap8889 wrote:I think the divide between ultra liberal metropolitan elite and the conservative working class has been made vastly worse by the employment of cheap immigrant labour by the former, at the expense of the latter.



I'm not sure it's as simple as that, there are numerous examples in the lower paid, and particularly in the seasonal work sector, where it's really not that easy to find sufficient Britons willing to do the work, and do it well. The hotel and hospitality trade, the agricultural sector and construction being obvious examples. If more poor Britons could get enthusiastic about doing a days work then maybe there wouldn't have been such a huge influx of foreign workers. If some one from Warsaw can come to Blairgowrie to spend six months fruit and veg picking then why can't someone from Birmingham, or for that matter Dundee?
This is perhaps not so much the case further up the pay scale where 'overqualified' eastern europeans were at one time prepared to do less highly paid jobs than their UK equivalents because the pay was still massively better than back home. However the latter example is one of those that, as someone else indicated, will eventually balance out (and indeed is starting to) as wages rise in their own countries and the cost/benefit sum of coming here starts to swing back in the other direction.

The idea that somehow poor Britons have been shafted by the wealthy may be true but it is only half the story, many have been complicit in creating their own situation either individually or historically as a group over the longer term by voting for governments that have perpetuated the welfare state in a way that it offers a degree of comfort that is low enough to make them miserable and resentful of those who work and yet still generous enough that they can't be bothered with the upheaval of taking a job beyond a short bus ride away (or in some cases getting a job full stop).

However in today's society nothing is ever your fault, it's always someone else's and social media is there now to help perpetuate and strengthen that meme in a way that previous communication methods just couldn't match. If you're looking to blame someone immigration and supposed foreign influence has always been a good target for focussing the disaffected, and for the elites that manipulate them. That doesn't mean immigration isn't sometimes problematic, clearly it can be sometimes, it's just that those problems are easily exaggerated and weaponised by those who have grievances and by those who wish to exploit those grievances for their own ends.


BH

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158937

Postby mutantpoodle » August 12th, 2018, 12:01 pm

I'm not sure it's as simple as that, there are numerous examples in the lower paid, and particularly in the seasonal work sector, where it's really not that easy to find sufficient Britons willing to do the work, and do it well.

but that's another issue...being that 'Britons not willing to do the work' do not need to, as they are 'looked after' despite refusing/declining available jobs

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158941

Postby Sundance13 » August 12th, 2018, 12:02 pm

mutantpoodle wrote:'''The only people who’ll benefit from Brexit are the priveliged, that’s why the Tories are backing it, ''

no they are backing it because it was what 17.4 m people voted for

if you look at the vote spread you can see that more 'TORY' constituencies voted REMAIN
and more 'Labour' voted LEAVE

so whatever the end outcome...its NOT because Tories want it!...just look at the balls up they making of negotiations...


Thanks, but the point I was addressing was about Brexit being in the interests of the working class, which it isn’t. There is an issue around high immigration and it’s effects on wages possibly, although I believe the initial Govt immigration paper earlier in the year said this hadn’t had an impact.


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