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The article that Remainers need to read

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Sundance13
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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158880

Postby Sundance13 » August 12th, 2018, 7:03 am

beeswax wrote:Re read Lootman's post because its very good and illuminating and encapsulates what the divisions are in this country and that isn't going to be 'healed' by Brexit as you know the pigs always take over the trough. (Courtesy of George Orwell)..

It did show though that 52% ie 17.4 million were pissed off with the status quo and Professor Hennesy rightly said that no government has succeeded in getting more than 50% of the vote in a General Election since 1935 which is a hell of a long time, nearly a century and shows how fragile our democracy is and if we don't get a clean Brexit which most leavers if not all leavers voted for then who are they going to vote for at the next GE and that is why politics matter more than the economics...I think I read not long ago that we spend 35 billions on Quango's each year and so why not just do away with them all and build more social housing and give people at the bottom a huge tax break or increase in the minimum wage that will encourage more people into work...Every ex MP and certainly Cabinet Ministers seem to be on these Quangos and so there is a huge divide between the haves and have nots..

Name me one Quango that has repaired your pothole or bought you a loaf of bread? They are leeches and so is the HoL and so how much does that cost us...I wonder what people make of it when they see them all in their ermine? 300 pounds a day tax free for a few minutes attendance would feed most families for a week..

So Parliament and Labour especially need to reconsider their approach to the Brexit vote and then start to represent the average voter and not the privileged..When I read that almost any Director of any Company is awarded massive shares worth millions and maybe with that company a very short time despite a million plus salary to boot AND then a massive payout for failure, there is something very very wrong with our values..

It's the politicians that have got us all in this mess and they seem incapable of providing the solutions...Brexit is easy...We should have left the next week and then argued the toss afterwards and there was no way they would have stopped their half a trillion sales of goods here and grounded planes as they really did have more to lose than we did...But fancy us getting lumbered with the useless Teresa May that has failed in every job she has had and got it by default....It really is amazing even now that the public saw that when she lost a 20 point lead in the OP to a hung parliament...Brexit cannot and will not happen while she is still PM....But the Lords and ermine await her presence, we can only hope that is soon, very soon!

Lady Maydeadhead?



Mike,

The only people who’ll benefit from Brexit are the priveliged, that’s why the Tories are backing it, particularly right wingers like Jacob Rees Mogg. They’ll all be cleaning up on the markets next March, if they push through the ‘no deal’, they are after and we see impacts on the financial markets.

Do you think the workers are going to benefit from a ‘no deal’ scenario, unilateral tariff removal or a deep FTA with the USA? Remember Donald Trump and his America 1st position. The working class will be the biggest losers.

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158907

Postby mutantpoodle » August 12th, 2018, 10:12 am

'''The only people who’ll benefit from Brexit are the priveliged, that’s why the Tories are backing it, ''

no they are backing it because it was what 17.4 m people voted for

if you look at the vote spread you can see that more 'TORY' constituencies voted REMAIN
and more 'Labour' voted LEAVE

so whatever the end outcome...its NOT because Tories want it!...just look at the balls up they making of negotiations...

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158919

Postby bionichamster » August 12th, 2018, 10:35 am

ap8889 wrote:I think the divide between ultra liberal metropolitan elite and the conservative working class has been made vastly worse by the employment of cheap immigrant labour by the former, at the expense of the latter.



I'm not sure it's as simple as that, there are numerous examples in the lower paid, and particularly in the seasonal work sector, where it's really not that easy to find sufficient Britons willing to do the work, and do it well. The hotel and hospitality trade, the agricultural sector and construction being obvious examples. If more poor Britons could get enthusiastic about doing a days work then maybe there wouldn't have been such a huge influx of foreign workers. If some one from Warsaw can come to Blairgowrie to spend six months fruit and veg picking then why can't someone from Birmingham, or for that matter Dundee?
This is perhaps not so much the case further up the pay scale where 'overqualified' eastern europeans were at one time prepared to do less highly paid jobs than their UK equivalents because the pay was still massively better than back home. However the latter example is one of those that, as someone else indicated, will eventually balance out (and indeed is starting to) as wages rise in their own countries and the cost/benefit sum of coming here starts to swing back in the other direction.

The idea that somehow poor Britons have been shafted by the wealthy may be true but it is only half the story, many have been complicit in creating their own situation either individually or historically as a group over the longer term by voting for governments that have perpetuated the welfare state in a way that it offers a degree of comfort that is low enough to make them miserable and resentful of those who work and yet still generous enough that they can't be bothered with the upheaval of taking a job beyond a short bus ride away (or in some cases getting a job full stop).

However in today's society nothing is ever your fault, it's always someone else's and social media is there now to help perpetuate and strengthen that meme in a way that previous communication methods just couldn't match. If you're looking to blame someone immigration and supposed foreign influence has always been a good target for focussing the disaffected, and for the elites that manipulate them. That doesn't mean immigration isn't sometimes problematic, clearly it can be sometimes, it's just that those problems are easily exaggerated and weaponised by those who have grievances and by those who wish to exploit those grievances for their own ends.


BH

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158937

Postby mutantpoodle » August 12th, 2018, 12:01 pm

I'm not sure it's as simple as that, there are numerous examples in the lower paid, and particularly in the seasonal work sector, where it's really not that easy to find sufficient Britons willing to do the work, and do it well.

but that's another issue...being that 'Britons not willing to do the work' do not need to, as they are 'looked after' despite refusing/declining available jobs

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158941

Postby Sundance13 » August 12th, 2018, 12:02 pm

mutantpoodle wrote:'''The only people who’ll benefit from Brexit are the priveliged, that’s why the Tories are backing it, ''

no they are backing it because it was what 17.4 m people voted for

if you look at the vote spread you can see that more 'TORY' constituencies voted REMAIN
and more 'Labour' voted LEAVE

so whatever the end outcome...its NOT because Tories want it!...just look at the balls up they making of negotiations...


Thanks, but the point I was addressing was about Brexit being in the interests of the working class, which it isn’t. There is an issue around high immigration and it’s effects on wages possibly, although I believe the initial Govt immigration paper earlier in the year said this hadn’t had an impact.

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158957

Postby anticrank » August 12th, 2018, 12:51 pm

mutantpoodle wrote:'''The only people who’ll benefit from Brexit are the priveliged, that’s why the Tories are backing it, ''

no they are backing it because it was what 17.4 m people voted for

if you look at the vote spread you can see that more 'TORY' constituencies voted REMAIN
and more 'Labour' voted LEAVE

so whatever the end outcome...its NOT because Tories want it!...just look at the balls up they making of negotiations...


https://fullfact.org/europe/did-majorit ... eferendum/

According to these estimates, around 75% of constituencies that were won by the Conservatives in the 2017 general election voted to Leave, while around 61% of Labour constituencies voted to Leave.

Somewhere in the region of 70% of Labour voters support Remain. The percentages are approximately reversed for Tory voters. It is certainly the case that Tory constituency party members and voters want Brexit, and constituency members, in particular, want it hard. And their support for Brexit is very much behind the Government's refusal, from the outset, to countenance a soft Norway-style future relationship.

It is also palpable nonsense that 17.4 million leave voters voted for the same thing, beyond the mere act of leaving. There is a very obvious divergence of interests between the largely Tory impulse to tear down regulation and engage in so-called 'unilateral free trade' and the many ordinary Leave voters who will be shafted by such a Brexit. They are two Leaver constituencies whose interests are not even approximately aligned.

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#158967

Postby XFool » August 12th, 2018, 2:06 pm

anticrank wrote:It is also palpable nonsense that 17.4 million leave voters voted for the same thing, beyond the mere act of leaving. There is a very obvious divergence of interests between the largely Tory impulse to tear down regulation and engage in so-called 'unilateral free trade' and the many ordinary Leave voters who will be shafted by such a Brexit. They are two Leaver constituencies whose interests are not even approximately aligned.

Possibly more than those two? Interestingly this is, to some extent, reflected on these boards, where Beeswax pursues the: "It's not about the economy!" Brexit line, while ap889 pursues the: "What about the workers?" version - at base, an economic argument.

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#159003

Postby Charlottesquare » August 12th, 2018, 3:50 pm

Sundance13 wrote:
Lootman wrote:
Sundance13 wrote: like it or not we all live in the same country and a bitter & divided country isn’t a great place to live, nor will it likely be a very successful country going forwards.

But we were divided either way. What would the Remain side have done to heal that division? I submit - nothing.

Anyway we are divided in many ways, between rich and poor, Tory and Labour, old and young, Remain and Leave, homeowners and renters, managers and workers, urban and rural.

Whether Leaving is successful won't be known for years. But I do not believe that anything can heal divisions. They will just persist and people will complain forever. Isn't that normal?


Well remain probably wouldn’t have used the win as a mandate to push for an extreme interpretation of the result (Schengen/Euro) that wasn’t supported by a majority of the country.

You say we won’t know if Leave has been successful for years, but depends what you describe ‘successful’ as? What is your criteria for a successful Brexit?


Whilst knowing it was a success will imho certainly take many years knowing it was not a success will likely be evident far faster.

I suspect that the test period for deciding it was not a success, if that is what it turns out to be, will only at most need to be circa two years post leaving. (Leaving here being defined as when all transition agreements/extensions, if there are transition agreements/extensions, have expired)

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#159006

Postby Charlottesquare » August 12th, 2018, 4:03 pm

beeswax wrote:Re read Lootman's post because its very good and illuminating and encapsulates what the divisions are in this country and that isn't going to be 'healed' by Brexit as you know the pigs always take over the trough. (Courtesy of George Orwell)..

It did show though that 52% ie 17.4 million were pissed off with the status quo and Professor Hennesy rightly said that no government has succeeded in getting more than 50% of the vote in a General Election since 1935 which is a hell of a long time, nearly a century and shows how fragile our democracy is and if we don't get a clean Brexit which most leavers if not all leavers voted for then who are they going to vote for at the next GE and that is why politics matter more than the economics...I think I read not long ago that we spend 35 billions on Quango's each year and so why not just do away with them all and build more social housing and give people at the bottom a huge tax break or increase in the minimum wage that will encourage more people into work...Every ex MP and certainly Cabinet Ministers seem to be on these Quangos and so there is a huge divide between the haves and have nots..

Name me one Quango that has repaired your pothole or bought you a loaf of bread? They are leeches and so is the HoL and so how much does that cost us...I wonder what people make of it when they see them all in their ermine? 300 pounds a day tax free for a few minutes attendance would feed most families for a week..

So Parliament and Labour especially need to reconsider their approach to the Brexit vote and then start to represent the average voter and not the privileged..When I read that almost any Director of any Company is awarded massive shares worth millions and maybe with that company a very short time despite a million plus salary to boot AND then a massive payout for failure, there is something very very wrong with our values..

It's the politicians that have got us all in this mess and they seem incapable of providing the solutions...Brexit is easy...We should have left the next week and then argued the toss afterwards and there was no way they would have stopped their half a trillion sales of goods here and grounded planes as they really did have more to lose than we did...But fancy us getting lumbered with the useless Teresa May that has failed in every job she has had and got it by default....It really is amazing even now that the public saw that when she lost a 20 point lead in the OP to a hung parliament...Brexit cannot and will not happen while she is still PM....But the Lords and ermine await her presence, we can only hope that is soon, very soon!

Lady Maydeadhead?


1. In the event of a non clean Brexit somewhat unsure your 52% are all going to march behind one political party, it hardly seems credible that they will all back the Conservatives given the hash they have made not delivering your sought clean Brexit, so which single party will benefit?

2. Re quangos it really depends how they are defined, is something like The Seafish industry Authority a quango? To quote their website, "Seafish is a Non-Departmental Public Body (NDPB) set up by the Fisheries Act 1981 to improve efficiency and raise standards across the seafood industry"

http://www.seafish.org/about-seafish

3. Re companies, do you mean quoted FTSE 100 companies rather than any company? I have six appointments as a director or company secretary of private companies, I do not earn millions or have shares worth millions, you appear to be labelling all companies based on a very few very large organisations who in fact, in the main, operate in a very limited way within the UK and accordingly whose salaries really are of little concern solely to the UK.

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#159011

Postby anticrank » August 12th, 2018, 4:23 pm

XFool wrote:
anticrank wrote:It is also palpable nonsense that 17.4 million leave voters voted for the same thing, beyond the mere act of leaving. There is a very obvious divergence of interests between the largely Tory impulse to tear down regulation and engage in so-called 'unilateral free trade' and the many ordinary Leave voters who will be shafted by such a Brexit. They are two Leaver constituencies whose interests are not even approximately aligned.

Possibly more than those two? Interestingly this is, to some extent, reflected on these boards, where Beeswax pursues the: "It's not about the economy!" Brexit line, while ap889 pursues the: "What about the workers?" version - at base, an economic argument.


Brexit is very conflicted. That, and the government's inability to be honest with the public (or with the Tory grass roots), is why the government is tied up in knots trying to develop schemes -- at the last minute -- that satisfy everyone.

The idea that the government is delivering something that 17.4 million people voted for is beyond absurd.

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#159055

Postby anticrank » August 12th, 2018, 6:51 pm

anticrank wrote:
XFool wrote:
anticrank wrote:It is also palpable nonsense that 17.4 million leave voters voted for the same thing, beyond the mere act of leaving. There is a very obvious divergence of interests between the largely Tory impulse to tear down regulation and engage in so-called 'unilateral free trade' and the many ordinary Leave voters who will be shafted by such a Brexit. They are two Leaver constituencies whose interests are not even approximately aligned.

Possibly more than those two? Interestingly this is, to some extent, reflected on these boards, where Beeswax pursues the: "It's not about the economy!" Brexit line, while ap889 pursues the: "What about the workers?" version - at base, an economic argument.


Brexit is very conflicted. That, and the government's inability to be honest with the public (or with the Tory grass roots), is why the government is tied up in knots trying to develop schemes -- at the last minute -- that satisfy everyone.

The idea that the government is delivering something that 17.4 million people voted for is beyond absurd.


A Twitter thread that converges, after a few tweets, on the argument above:

https://mobile.twitter.com/GeorgePeretz ... 4092870656

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#159076

Postby XFool » August 12th, 2018, 8:05 pm

anticrank wrote:A Twitter thread that converges, after a few tweets, on the argument above:

https://mobile.twitter.com/GeorgePeretz ... 4092870656

An intelligent Brexit discussion? Can this be real?

"The Government has been faced with a mandate that promised both “taking back control” and responding to the world view @GoodwinMJ sets out but *also* delivering it in a way that avoids the economic shock associated with leaving the EU."

"Now, @GoodwinMJ criticises the “establishment” response to the vote. But his criticism of that response fails to engage with the problem that the “establishment” has been given an impossible mandate. The political system simply can’t deliver what it has been told to deliver."

Um... That sounds very like what I have been thinking.

But then again:

"He outlines the grievences of the Brexiteers. The problem is that Brexit is unlikely to answer any of them. However, had the vote not happened, would any change at all have taken place?

Interesting.

And I really liked the BJ quote! ("...real problems... that have nothing to do with Europe." - February 2016) :lol:

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#159125

Postby BobbyD » August 13th, 2018, 1:33 am

anticrank wrote:Brexit is very conflicted. That, and the government's inability to be honest with the public (or with the Tory grass roots), is why the government is tied up in knots trying to develop schemes -- at the last minute -- that satisfy everyone.


If such schemes existed somebody would have uncovered them by now... as I recall saying 2 years ago...

There is no scheme which satisfies all the people, there isn't even a scheme which satisfies all Brexiteers, and the only scheme which comes anywhere close to satisfying half of the people is Remain...

On which point...

More than 100 seats that backed Brexit now want to remain in EU


- https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -to-remain

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#159143

Postby supremetwo » August 13th, 2018, 9:05 am

BobbyD wrote:More than 100 seats that backed Brexit now want to remain in EU
- https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -to-remain

When wage-earners cotton on to this, there could well be a change of minds back the other way.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... -arrive-uk

The number of people applying for the average low-skilled vacancy has fallen from 24 to 20 in the past year and from 19 to 10 for medium-skilled posts.

Half of organisations with recruitment problems said they had increased starting salaries in response.

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#159207

Postby BobbyD » August 13th, 2018, 12:43 pm

supremetwo wrote:The number of people applying for the average low-skilled vacancy has fallen from 24 to 20 in the past year and from 19 to 10 for medium-skilled posts.

Half of organisations with recruitment problems said they had increased starting salaries in response.


...just wait until the price increases kick in.

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#159211

Postby Charlottesquare » August 13th, 2018, 12:53 pm

supremetwo wrote:
BobbyD wrote:More than 100 seats that backed Brexit now want to remain in EU
- https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -to-remain

When wage-earners cotton on to this, there could well be a change of minds back the other way.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... -arrive-uk

The number of people applying for the average low-skilled vacancy has fallen from 24 to 20 in the past year and from 19 to 10 for medium-skilled posts.

Half of organisations with recruitment problems said they had increased starting salaries in response.


Until they later experience the "no free lunch" outcome, higher wages without increased productivity tend to impact inflation, couple it with likely further sterling devaluation impacting import costs and one gets a perfect storm ,with those already owning assets like property having a great time until the inevitable interest rate rises to try to quell the inflationary pressures, welcome back to the 1970s.

Must admit the 1970s were actually great for some, my dad bought our family home in 1967 for £6,600 and sold it in 1982 for £50,000 (would have been £60,000 but for some hidden dry rot discovered) , this and selling his firm meant he effectively retired age 55, pretty decent return for just fifteen years.

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#159219

Postby beeswax » August 13th, 2018, 1:31 pm

Charlottesquare wrote:
supremetwo wrote:
BobbyD wrote:More than 100 seats that backed Brexit now want to remain in EU
- https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... -to-remain

When wage-earners cotton on to this, there could well be a change of minds back the other way.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... -arrive-uk

The number of people applying for the average low-skilled vacancy has fallen from 24 to 20 in the past year and from 19 to 10 for medium-skilled posts.

Half of organisations with recruitment problems said they had increased starting salaries in response.


Until they later experience the "no free lunch" outcome, higher wages without increased productivity tend to impact inflation, couple it with likely further sterling devaluation impacting import costs and one gets a perfect storm ,with those already owning assets like property having a great time until the inevitable interest rate rises to try to quell the inflationary pressures, welcome back to the 1970s.

Must admit the 1970s were actually great for some, my dad bought our family home in 1967 for £6,600 and sold it in 1982 for £50,000 (would have been £60,000 but for some hidden dry rot discovered) , this and selling his firm meant he effectively retired age 55, pretty decent return for just fifteen years.


No, it was always tough buying your first house as I did in in 1968 for about 2900 pounds and the mortgage and rates took half my income and remember we could not afford cheap garden tools and borrowed some to do the garden. I also had a weekend job collecting TV rents...PLus an old banger car that had virtually rotted away. I now see quite young couples living in detached houses with two cars in the drive..

But what I wanted to say is the increase in house prices is no use if then you have to pay the same or more for another house and no doubt your dad did the same when he moved...They are only ever useful if you move abroad for something cheaper or you die and leave it to your kids. Anyway the LA will take it if you need to go into care and so its not really a win win as some may suggest..

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#159246

Postby Charlottesquare » August 13th, 2018, 2:45 pm

beeswax wrote:
Charlottesquare wrote:
supremetwo wrote:When wage-earners cotton on to this, there could well be a change of minds back the other way.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... -arrive-uk

The number of people applying for the average low-skilled vacancy has fallen from 24 to 20 in the past year and from 19 to 10 for medium-skilled posts.

Half of organisations with recruitment problems said they had increased starting salaries in response.


Until they later experience the "no free lunch" outcome, higher wages without increased productivity tend to impact inflation, couple it with likely further sterling devaluation impacting import costs and one gets a perfect storm ,with those already owning assets like property having a great time until the inevitable interest rate rises to try to quell the inflationary pressures, welcome back to the 1970s.

Must admit the 1970s were actually great for some, my dad bought our family home in 1967 for £6,600 and sold it in 1982 for £50,000 (would have been £60,000 but for some hidden dry rot discovered) , this and selling his firm meant he effectively retired age 55, pretty decent return for just fifteen years.


No, it was always tough buying your first house as I did in in 1968 for about 2900 pounds and the mortgage and rates took half my income and remember we could not afford cheap garden tools and borrowed some to do the garden. I also had a weekend job collecting TV rents...PLus an old banger car that had virtually rotted away. I now see quite young couples living in detached houses with two cars in the drive..

But what I wanted to say is the increase in house prices is no use if then you have to pay the same or more for another house and no doubt your dad did the same when he moved...They are only ever useful if you move abroad for something cheaper or you die and leave it to your kids. Anyway the LA will take it if you need to go into care and so its not really a win win as some may suggest..


Well, in my father's case he downsized and bought two smaller properties and banked the change; he was a have.

My point was more that wage increases, which do not correspond with increased economic activity, tend, in the long run, to be inflationary, and inflation tends to favour the asset rich- so reduced immigration leading to recruitment problems cured, in the short term, with wage increases, tends to be a nil sum game in the longer term and may well make the gap between the haves and have not worse not better.

There is no magic cure for an economy whose bottom (and possibly middle with AI) quartiles do not have value adding employment at the wage levels needed to be comfortable, and wishful thinking re selling high cost production (as wages are a cost of production) to the ROW are a somewhat forlorn prospect until wages in ROW increase and wages in the developed world stagnate, or continue to drop in real terms, so that say the UK is competitive in the world re far more products.

Yes, we can gear an economy to high tech, niche, high vale added products, but as I posted in another post there is going to be a very finite market for these types of products (only so many nations can afford them en masse) and we have too big a population for everyone to have such employment.

Imho we all need to accept that the developed world will see a stagnation or reduction in relative standards of living, a smaller world has changed the economic dynamics.

I have no ready answers to the issue, but one answer i know will not work is Brexit, from a selfish ,developed world, perspective external tariffs protect EU employment, albeit slowing the development of the rest of the world, the situation we had within the EU at least allowed a more gradual leveling. A crash out onto WTO will accelerate the process and will likely be very painful for the lower paid.

Brexit is imho mere distraction from the real issues, it creates a tangible target, makes people believe (Imho erroneously) that it is a cure, but I suspect those who voted for it as a harbinger of a more equal society are going to be very, very, disappointed.

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#159255

Postby Ashfordian » August 13th, 2018, 3:02 pm

The BBC's Brexit bias has occurred again today.

They were interviewing the founders of PoundStretcher because of the TV show that is currently being broadcast about the company.

They wanted a bad news Brexit story so asked how the company was dealing with the devaluation of Sterling since the referendum vote. They got the answer that the company was now sourcing more items locally. The presenters quickly moved onto the next question. Obviously, this good news Brexit story was explored further and is making headlines on the BBC's website or their Business section of the website ;)

This is another win following the Brexit vote but there are large sections of the British media, including the so-called unbiased BBC, that suppress good Brexit news or just not report on it at all...

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Re: The article that Remainers need to read

#159274

Postby ursaminortaur » August 13th, 2018, 3:46 pm

Ashfordian wrote:The BBC's Brexit bias has occurred again today.

They were interviewing the founders of PoundStretcher because of the TV show that is currently being broadcast about the company.

They wanted a bad news Brexit story so asked how the company was dealing with the devaluation of Sterling since the referendum vote. They got the answer that the company was now sourcing more items locally. The presenters quickly moved onto the next question. Obviously, this good news Brexit story was explored further and is making headlines on the BBC's website or their Business section of the website ;)

This is another win following the Brexit vote but there are large sections of the British media, including the so-called unbiased BBC, that suppress good Brexit news or just not report on it at all...


It is only good news if such a change allows PoundStretcher to survive and prosper. Presumably before the fall in Sterling they purchased products from overseas because they were the best quality products they could get for the price otherwise they would have purchased in the UK. So does the fact that they are now forced to buy more locally sourced items mean that the quality of their products has fallen or are they having to pay more for the products - just less than they would if they had stuck with their overseas suppliers because of the devaluation ? If so will that help PoundStretcher survive ?


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