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Language

Pull up a chair, have a biscuit - discuss the site and general questions about the LemonFool
Leothebear
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Language

#185497

Postby Leothebear » December 7th, 2018, 10:38 pm

Moderator Message:
Moved to Biscuit Bar. Room 101 is not for general discussion. Shadow left for completeness (chas49)


Or rather so called "bad" language. The BBC has for many years allowed the "F" word to be used after the watershed 9pm. This applies particularly to comedy. Here it is not allowed at all under the premise that this is a family website.

I would ask:

Is there anyone on this site who does not occasionally use the "F" word?
How many minors visit this site? I would argue that the vast majority on here are over 50. It is NOT a family site.

Why allow swearing?

I think in the right context the odd profanity can be hard hitting and/or funny. This assumes selective use of the profanity. Excessive use, I'd agree should be moderated. It also adds a degree of much needed freedom.

A relaxation in this rule would also make the moderator's job easier. They could simply ask the question - "Would the BBC allow it?"

kiloran
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Re: Language

#185499

Postby kiloran » December 7th, 2018, 11:22 pm

Nope, never ever used the F word myself, though I don't become "Enraged of Tonbridge Wells" if I hear it on the telly.
Leothebear wrote:Excessive use, I'd agree should be moderated. It also adds a degree of much needed freedom.
A relaxation in this rule would also make the moderator's job easier.

I would think it would make the mods' job harder. Not allowing swearing is easy(?) to mod, it's black and white, with perhaps the odd shade of grey.
If swearing were to be allowed, who defines what "excessive" means? Open to a great amount of interpretation. And subsequent tedious arguments in the Biscuit Bar or Room 101.

Status Quo please.

--kiloran

Leothebear
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Re: Language

#185501

Postby Leothebear » December 7th, 2018, 11:39 pm

Never ever used the F word? Gosh how very virtuous. Well done.

kiloran
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Re: Language

#185503

Postby kiloran » December 7th, 2018, 11:50 pm

Leothebear wrote:Never ever used the F word? Gosh how very virtuous. Well done.

I'd hardly call myself virtuous, but swearing never really floated my boat. Each to his own.

--kiloran

Clariman
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Re: Language

#185504

Postby Clariman » December 7th, 2018, 11:54 pm

Leothebear

You gave some reasons why the site should allow swearing and expressed an opinion why we don't. You could have asked why we don't :) .

The reason wr don't want swearing on the site is so that we maintain an environment where users are respected and are not offended. While I might agree that the odd swear word is acceptable in some circles, we have many users here and some will undoubtedly find the F word offensive irrespective of its context.

Our forum rules are there because we want to set a positive tone for discussions here. There are plenty of discussion forums full of abuse, spam and trolling. We do not want this to be one so take a robust view.

I hope that explains our position.

Clariman

melonfool
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Re: Language

#185509

Postby melonfool » December 8th, 2018, 1:14 am

I tend to think you'll never offend someone by *not* swearing, where you might offend, or turn away, someone by swearing. So why do the latter?

I say that as a very sweary person myself. I can manage to avoid it on here, mainly, and without feeling worse off for it

Mel

Itsallaguess
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Re: Language

#185510

Postby Itsallaguess » December 8th, 2018, 5:26 am

Leothebear wrote:
I think in the right context the odd profanity can be hard hitting and/or funny. This assumes selective use of the profanity. Excessive use, I'd agree should be moderated.


I tend to agree that a rare but well-place profanity, in the right context and where it's not used to add weight to what might be an already abusive sentence, can be enjoyed by an adult audience, but then as Clariman has said, we've got to cater for all potential audiences here, so we must be careful in our approach, and I'd like to think that people generally 'get this', and behave accordingly....

I should state that I say the above as one who does not normally swear personally, and even when known to it's almost exclusively at the lower-end of the 'spectrum'. I'm not a naturally 'good' swearer, and so simply choose not to do it, and I like to think it sets a good example to my son, who will unfortunately be (and is) naturally exposed to a large amount of it, but will hopefully grow up knowing that it's quite possible not to have to do so...

Regarding these boards though, I think that you need to appreciate that there are two elements to any moderation of swearing -

1. Non-reported moderation, met when reading posts that might contain swearing.

2. Reported moderation, met when dealing with reports of swearing.


Regarding the first situation above, I know that I've let swearing go when it has ticked all the following boxes -

a. It's very rare, both generally on the boards and from the poster themselves.

b. It's in a completely non-abusive context, meaning that there's no way someone can take offence in a personal way by the use of a word or phrase.

c. It adds colour to a phrase or post in an adult way, and usually that means passing my 'humour' test, which of course might not align with someone else's....Having mentioned above that I don't swear personally, I do often find the good use of it, in a well-timed and well-placed humorous context, very funny indeed....


Regarding the second 'Reported moderation' situation, however, I think moderators have a more pressing duty to respond to other readers views on the use of swearing, and if someone reports something then I think we would then need to act accordingly...

For the avoidance of doubt, and in relation to your opening post, I would always moderate the use of the 'F' word, even without a report, and I'd expect that to be the case generally on these boards. Whilst I have my personal views expressed above, I don't think we should ever allow some specific swear words, no matter how rare or well-placed they might be, and that's one of the ones on that 'list'....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

csearle
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Re: Language

#185553

Postby csearle » December 8th, 2018, 10:55 am

kiloran wrote:Nope, never ever used the F word myself, though I don't become "Enraged of Tonbridge Wells" if I hear it on the telly.
Well I'm just ******* outraged at the deliberate and malicious misspelling of my home town.

Chris
(Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells*)

*Aka Royal Tunbridge Wells

kiloran
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Re: Language

#185555

Postby kiloran » December 8th, 2018, 11:04 am

csearle wrote:
kiloran wrote:Nope, never ever used the F word myself, though I don't become "Enraged of Tonbridge Wells" if I hear it on the telly.
Well I'm just ******* outraged at the deliberate and malicious misspelling of my home town.

Chris
(Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells*)

*Aka Royal Tunbridge Wells

Please don't confuse deliberate and malicious with sheer incompetence ;)

--kiloran

PinkDalek
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Re: Language

#185665

Postby PinkDalek » December 8th, 2018, 8:33 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:… For the avoidance of doubt, and in relation to your opening post, I would always moderate the use of the 'F' word, even without a report, and I'd expect that to be the case generally on these boards. ...


I appreciate you are using the 'F' word as an example and would similarly moderate deliberate variations of the same but, assuming the profanity filter continues to function, you shouldn't be able to find*** that precise word on TLF, as it ends up being posted as:

womble

A search for the 'F' word finds four examples. All changed to womble.

Whereas .…ers gets posted as written.


*** Unless Mods see the unaltered version.

chas49
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Re: Language

#185668

Postby chas49 » December 8th, 2018, 8:42 pm

PinkDalek wrote:*** Unless Mods see the unaltered version.


We don't.

jfgw
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Re: Language

#185789

Postby jfgw » December 9th, 2018, 6:25 pm

csearle wrote:
kiloran wrote:Nope, never ever used the F word myself, though I don't become "Enraged of Tonbridge Wells" if I hear it on the telly.
Well I'm just ******* outraged at the deliberate and malicious misspelling of my home town.

It's simple enough. With North pointing upwards (as is the convention with most maps), TOnbridge is Over and TUnbridge Wells is Under. If your knowledge of Kent is lacking, just remember that wells go downwards.

Julian F. G. W.

kiloran
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Re: Language

#185790

Postby kiloran » December 9th, 2018, 6:40 pm

jfgw wrote: If your knowledge of Kent is lacking, just remember that wells go downwards.
Julian F. G. W.

Not just lacking... my knowledge of anywhere south of the Midlands is less than zero

Pàislig is nearer to my comfort zone

--kiloran

scotia
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Re: Language

#185802

Postby scotia » December 9th, 2018, 7:34 pm

At the loch, the F word is one of the most used adjectives amongst the (male) fishers. This may have something to do with the cunning and wile displayed by our brown trout. One day my wife was walking round the loch in my company when we stopped to talk to one of the most ardent adherents of the F adjective, and it was almost comical to see him try to construct a sentence without its use. Yet he managed - and, in my opinion, so also should we.

Lootman
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Re: Language

#185812

Postby Lootman » December 9th, 2018, 8:13 pm

scotia wrote:One day my wife was walking round the loch in my company when we stopped to talk to one of the most ardent adherents of the F adjective, and it was almost comical to see him try to construct a sentence without its use. Yet he managed - and, in my opinion, so also should we.

But the F word is so much more than just an adjective. It can, in different contexts, be a noun, verb, adjective, adverb, conjunction, exclamation and probably others.

And there are occasions when quite simply no other word will do to convey a certain meaning, such as when I hit my thumb with a hammer. "Gosh" or "Golly" don't capture the essence somehow.

I'm not arguing for it to be allowed on TLF, by the way. Merely to acknowledge its unique place in the English language and its near universal employment in everyday speech.

scotia
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Re: Language

#185830

Postby scotia » December 9th, 2018, 11:05 pm

Lootman wrote:But the F word is so much more than just an adjective. It can, in different contexts, be a noun, verb, adjective, adverb, conjunction, exclamation and probably others.

Have no fear - many of my fishing companions can use it in all available forms. But in all forms they all have the same characteristics - they are simply fillers imparting no information.

LadyGagarin
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Re: Language

#186216

Postby LadyGagarin » December 11th, 2018, 6:58 pm

I would have thought the overall gist of a sentence is more important than whether it contains swearing or not. Surely it can't be that hard to differentiate between somebody saying e.g. "What the f***?" Or "Oh f*** that was my thumb!" and somebody calling another poster a "f***ing moron"? It's perfectly possible to be nasty and abusive without cursing, if that's your intention, and personally I would be far more offended by the latter example. (Unless of course the recipient really deserved it. ;) )

With all due respect,
Lady G

csearle
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Re: Language

#186222

Postby csearle » December 11th, 2018, 7:30 pm

LadyGagarin wrote:I would have thought the overall gist of a sentence is more important than whether it contains swearing or not. Surely it can't be that hard to differentiate between somebody saying e.g. "What the f***?" Or "Oh f*** that was my thumb!" and somebody calling another poster a "f***ing moron"? It's perfectly possible to be nasty and abusive without cursing, if that's your intention, and personally I would be far more offended by the latter example. (Unless of course the recipient really deserved it. ;) )

With all due respect
I think your analysis is right. I also think that it would not be offensive if all uses were limited in the way you describe. Being a bit pragmatic for a moment I also think that it is easier for we moderators to simply ban the use of the terms rather that start adjudicating over whether each particular use is appropriate or not.

Also, and not unimportantly, there is a certain charm in a place where one is forced to express oneself with the old-fashioned sense of politeness (i.e. not tolerating such words).

Regards,
Chris

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Re: Language

#186254

Postby Clitheroekid » December 11th, 2018, 11:10 pm

Leothebear wrote:They could simply ask the question - "Would the BBC allow it?"

Unfortunately, the answer nowadays would always be "Yes".

I think there's a very big difference between what might be called conversational swearing and seeing it written down. It's also extremely dependent on context. With friends, colleagues and some clients I quite enjoy having a good swear, but it's limited to those people and there's a sort of unwritten agreement that it's between consenting adults.

I'm pretty sure that none of us would ever normally swear in a situation where it might be expected to upset other people, and I would never assume that it was OK to swear in front of someone I didn't know. I have to say that I find other people swearing in public places where it's not readily expected pretty offensive, and I expect many others do, as well.

Being of `that' generation I also generally avoid swearing in front of women. I know that an increasing number of women do swear, often more readily and frequently than many men, but although I don't mind it with women I know (though it's still fairly rare) I'm still mildly shocked when I hear it from women I don't know.

I still also avoid swearing in front of children, though it seems that it's now commonplace amongst children, far more than it ever was when I was a child, no doubt because they're exposed to it so much more, both at home, at school and in the media. Ironically, nowadays it's far more likely that I'd be shocked than the child!

I do, of course, realise that such differential attitudes are indefensible, but they're ingrained in my upbringing, and I doubt I'll live long enough to accept such swearing without inwardly wincing.

But to allow swearing to be used on these boards would be quite wrong. I hardly ever swear if I'm writing to someone, other than, maybe, in the context of a joke. This extends to both emails and text messages, and I very rarely see it in written communications from other people. Swearing somehow loses its impact when written down, and just looks rather ugly, and a bit desperate, as though the writer is really trying too hard.

After all, the main use of swearing in conversation is as a filler or for emphasis, and it's very often a substitute for articulacy, used by people who lack the vocabulary to convey their point effectively. But unlike a verbal sentence one has all the time in the world to compose a written sentence, so swearing rather loses its raison d'être.

So no, please do not allow swearing to be used. Apart from the practical difficulties for the poor mods, who would have the burden of censorship added to their already onerous duties, it adds nothing of worth at all and would simply coarsen the `conversation' carried on here.

TheMotorcycleBoy
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Re: Language

#186283

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » December 12th, 2018, 8:35 am

I personally swear like hell, probably too much. But to be honest, the use of vulgarity and words such as the F and the C word add very little to the quality of information exchange in an investment forum, or for that matter one that pertains to "Polite Discussions". So don't do it....

I actually think use of swear words and personal offence are usually orthogonal in my common experience. People seem much more likely to take offence in my words if I politely inform them that their actions are incompetent, than if I iterate to them what I think of the current day using street vernacular!

Matt


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