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Brexit all over?

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tikunetih
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Re: Brexit all over?

#207710

Postby tikunetih » March 14th, 2019, 5:01 pm

Was discussing the very same with neighbours recently... conclusion, "nobody to vote for" currently, as both front benches are staffed with and led by ignorant fools (or worse), while the handful of reasonable, sensible-sounding individuals who give the impression of inhabiting a similar real world to ourselves languish on the backbenches with only very limited influence.

It's as if, as part of a work experience exercise, a bunch of 6th form politics students have been put in charge of running the country's govt and opposition for a while, with the experiment only loosely monitored from afar by the experienced professionals (the adults); and having "got a lip for it", the 6th formers have managed to elbow the adult monitors to the very back of the room or outside, beyond earshot.

In such circumstances, what could go wrong?

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Re: Brexit all over?

#207714

Postby Wizard » March 14th, 2019, 5:15 pm

Thumping vote against a second referendum amendment.

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Re: Brexit all over?

#207715

Postby BobbyD » March 14th, 2019, 5:19 pm

Wizard wrote:Thumping vote against a second referendum amendment.


85 for at this point is a good result. Ultimately its policy for Labour, SNP etc.

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Re: Brexit all over?

#207716

Postby SteMiS » March 14th, 2019, 5:22 pm

tikunetih wrote:Was discussing the very same with neighbours recently... conclusion, "nobody to vote for" currently, as both front benches are staffed with and led by ignorant fools (or worse), while the handful of reasonable, sensible-sounding individuals who give the impression of inhabiting a similar real world to ourselves languish on the backbenches with only very limited influence.

It's as if, as part of a work experience exercise, a bunch of 6th form politics students have been put in charge of running the country's govt and opposition for a while, with the experiment only loosely monitored from afar by the experienced professionals (the adults); and having "got a lip for it", the 6th formers have managed to elbow the adult monitors to the very back of the room or outside, beyond earshot.

In such circumstances, what could go wrong?

Indeed. Although I attacked the Labour front bench, it's not much better on the other side. What's also happened is that the slightly odd mavericks, who no-one used to pay much attention to really, now seem to have got themselves centre stage. Like Nadine Dorres, who seems either not to know what is true or false or just doesn't really care, tweeting a ridiculous claim that the UK would be forced to join the Euro in 2020 and then deleting it when confronted. Or Mark Francois, who bragged he was in the army and wasn't trained to lose, despite being a trainee bank manager, then lobbyist, who did weekends in the territorials without seeing action.

Please feel free to add your own nominations for for idiot of the month award.

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Re: Brexit all over?

#207718

Postby Wizard » March 14th, 2019, 5:27 pm

BobbyD wrote:
Wizard wrote:Thumping vote against a second referendum amendment.


85 for at this point is a good result. Ultimately its policy for Labour, SNP etc.

No, not really, even if all Labour abstainers had voted for the motion it would have gone down.

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Re: Brexit all over?

#207719

Postby BobbyD » March 14th, 2019, 5:32 pm

Wizard wrote:
BobbyD wrote:
Wizard wrote:Thumping vote against a second referendum amendment.


85 for at this point is a good result. Ultimately its policy for Labour, SNP etc.

No, not really, even if all Labour abstainers had voted for the motion it would have gone down.


Second referendum is the final policy of about half the house... Most supporters of a second referendum are waiting for Kyle/Wilson.

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Re: Brexit all over?

#207721

Postby Wizard » March 14th, 2019, 5:37 pm

BobbyD wrote:
Wizard wrote:
BobbyD wrote:
85 for at this point is a good result. Ultimately its policy for Labour, SNP etc.

No, not really, even if all Labour abstainers had voted for the motion it would have gone down.


Second referendum is the final policy of about half the house... Most supporters of a second referendum are waiting for Kyle/Wilson.

I can see second referendum supporter abstaining in that vote, but seems odd that they voted against. Yet more than half of all MPs voted against the second referendum, so suggests to me less than half support one.

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Re: Brexit all over?

#207731

Postby BobbyD » March 14th, 2019, 6:43 pm

Speculation Leadsom voted against Government motion. An entirely futile gesture since there was no chance it would fail.

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Re: Brexit all over?

#207736

Postby Wizard » March 14th, 2019, 7:21 pm

BobbyD wrote:Speculation Leadsom voted against Government motion. An entirely futile gesture since there was no chance it would fail.

She did. So did Liam Fox. Resigning matter?
https://commonsvotes.digiminster.com/Di ... s/633#noes

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Re: Brexit all over?

#207737

Postby mike » March 14th, 2019, 7:26 pm

Wizard wrote:
BobbyD wrote:Speculation Leadsom voted against Government motion. An entirely futile gesture since there was no chance it would fail.

She did. So did Liam Fox. Resigning matter?
https://commonsvotes.digiminster.com/Di ... s/633#noes


Even more incredible, Stephen Barclay wound up for the government, and then voted against the motion !

Stephen Barclay at 5pm at the despatch box

"It is time to put forward an extension that is realistic. I commend the Government motion to the House."

And then he voted against the motion !

What a bunch of jokers

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Re: Brexit all over?

#207742

Postby Wizard » March 14th, 2019, 7:48 pm

Indeed, apparently it was a free vote, but even so that is bonkers. In fact a significant majority of Tory MPs voted against.

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Re: Brexit all over?

#207753

Postby spigot » March 14th, 2019, 8:50 pm

Wizard wrote:
BobbyD wrote:
Wizard wrote:Is it me or are Yvette Cooper and Hilary Benn looking a whole lot more impressive and demonstrating more leadership these days than the entire Opposition Front Bench?


Starmer would be the front bench exception. Cherry and Grieve have also been top notch.

Agreed.


For perverting democracy?

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Re: Brexit all over?

#207754

Postby Charlottesquare » March 14th, 2019, 9:16 pm

SteMiS wrote:
tikunetih wrote:Was discussing the very same with neighbours recently... conclusion, "nobody to vote for" currently, as both front benches are staffed with and led by ignorant fools (or worse), while the handful of reasonable, sensible-sounding individuals who give the impression of inhabiting a similar real world to ourselves languish on the backbenches with only very limited influence.

It's as if, as part of a work experience exercise, a bunch of 6th form politics students have been put in charge of running the country's govt and opposition for a while, with the experiment only loosely monitored from afar by the experienced professionals (the adults); and having "got a lip for it", the 6th formers have managed to elbow the adult monitors to the very back of the room or outside, beyond earshot.

In such circumstances, what could go wrong?

Indeed. Although I attacked the Labour front bench, it's not much better on the other side. What's also happened is that the slightly odd mavericks, who no-one used to pay much attention to really, now seem to have got themselves centre stage. Like Nadine Dorres, who seems either not to know what is true or false or just doesn't really care, tweeting a ridiculous claim that the UK would be forced to join the Euro in 2020 and then deleting it when confronted. Or Mark Francois, who bragged he was in the army and wasn't trained to lose, despite being a trainee bank manager, then lobbyist, who did weekends in the territorials without seeing action.

Please feel free to add your own nominations for for idiot of the month award.


There is really no easy way to get past Grayling on an overall basis though not sure he wins March.

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Re: Brexit all over?

#207758

Postby BobbyD » March 14th, 2019, 9:53 pm

The Former Brexit Secretary voted with the Government, the current Brexit Secretary voted against the Government and Government Chief Whip abstained!

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Re: Brexit all over?

#207761

Postby Wizard » March 14th, 2019, 10:35 pm

spigot wrote:
Wizard wrote:
BobbyD wrote:
Starmer would be the front bench exception. Cherry and Grieve have also been top notch.

Agreed.


For perverting democracy?

Sorry, I don't understand the question.

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Re: Brexit all over?

#207801

Postby spigot » March 15th, 2019, 8:38 am

Wizard wrote:
spigot wrote:
Wizard wrote:Agreed.


For perverting democracy?

Sorry, I don't understand the question.


The Govt. of the day held a referendum while strongly canvassing for remain (along with the establishment and most of the media) but promising the result would be honoured.

The winning margin was not massive but was decisive.The ballot paper was clear with no caveats, leave or stay.
The result was surprising for everyone, some alarmingly, others delightedly. Perhaps MPs were shell shocked. This would explain why they ratified triggering A50 despite the majority being remainers.

Things looked good at first with May promising repeatedly ‘Brexit means brexit’ and ‘ no deal is better than a bad deal’ Since then it has been all downhill for those who wish to leave culminating in the present situation.

The EU, UK negotiating team and Parliament have manoeuvred the UK into a position where we accept May’s half in half out deal which is not Brexit or a lengthy delay and continuing damaging uncertainty to our economy while a GE takes place or we are asked to vote again because the first vote was unacceptable to Parliament.

Brexit has not failed. Our Parliament full of remainers has failed to honour the democratic vote as promised by the then PM. Remainer MPs who see themselves as the saviour saving dim witted leavers from the their folly of thinking they can thrive outside of the EU. Astounding arrogance.
The insistence on only leaving with a deal was not what leavers voted for. There would be no major short term difference in leaving without a deal to leaving with a deal and no difference at all long term. Remain MPs want the UK to remain.

The intransigence of the EU in trying to derail Brexit could and should have been anticipated.
In short everyone who voted leave has had their vote discounted. If that is not perverting democracy what is!

Ironically if the leave vote is to count for anything it will be because one or more of the 27 refuse to ratify an extension to A50.

I really believe MPs and dyed in the wall remainers do not appreciate the anger and frustration that will be generated towards our ruling class if Brexit is thwarted.

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Re: Brexit all over?

#207813

Postby SteMiS » March 15th, 2019, 9:42 am

spigot wrote:
Wizard wrote:
spigot wrote:
For perverting democracy?

Sorry, I don't understand the question.

The Govt. of the day held a referendum while strongly canvassing for remain (along with the establishment and most of the media) but promising the result would be honoured.

The referendum was not binding. This is legally fact - see European Union Referendum Act 2015. That was confirmed by, and an important consideration in, the case R (Miller) v Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union [2017]. It is, unfortunately, why the referendum cannot be ruled invalid by the courts due to breaches of electoral law by the Vote Leave campaign. It really doesn't matter what anyone said about honouring the result or whatever. It doesn't matter if you believe it should be treated as binding. Such statements cannot override legal fact.

Despite this, personally, I'd not be happy with Article 50 being simply revoked (except in extremis) without another referendum.

spigot wrote:The winning margin was not massive but was decisive.The ballot paper was clear with no caveats, leave or stay.

You really can't have it both ways. On the one hand claiming that the ballot paper just said 'leave' but then claiming May's deal, which legally and unambiguously would mean we have left, doesn't meet the question on the ballot paper.

spigot wrote:The EU, UK negotiating team and Parliament have manoeuvred the UK into a position where we accept May’s half in half out deal which is not Brexit or a lengthy delay and continuing damaging uncertainty to our economy while a GE takes place or we are asked to vote again because the first vote was unacceptable to Parliament.

You can hardly blame the EU for using their negotiating strength to protect their position and look after the interests of their member; that's what it was set up to do!! It was naive of leavers to expect anything different and deceptive of them to misrepresent the balance of negotiating strengths of the two to electors. However the EU are not trying, and are not able, to force a GE or referendum on us.

spigot wrote: There would be no major short term difference in leaving without a deal to leaving with a deal and no difference at all long term.

That's your opinion but frankly not one shared by the overwhelming majority of businesses, economists, trade unions, farming organisations etc.

spigot wrote:In short everyone who voted leave has had their vote discounted. If that is not perverting democracy what is!

Democracy in this country is exercised through election of representatives to an assembly called parliament, where they use their judgement to run the country on the basis of the latest information. They are then accountable to their electors every 5 years (or less) in an election. They are not delegates and although we can advise them, through advisory referenda, they are not obliged to take our advice (otherwise the referenda wouldn't be advisory, would they...).

spigot wrote:Ironically if the leave vote is to count for anything it will be because one or more of the 27 refuse to ratify an extension to A50.

Yeah, the democracy of leavers conspiring with foreign agents (mostly right wing nationalists in Italy and Hungary) against the democratic government of their own country.

spigot wrote:I really believe MPs and dyed in the wall remainers do not appreciate the anger and frustration that will be generated towards our ruling class if Brexit is thwarted.

I don't think leavers appreciate the anger and frustration that will be generated towards our ruling class if we do...

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Re: Brexit all over?

#207814

Postby Alaric » March 15th, 2019, 9:43 am

spigot wrote:The ballot paper was clear with no caveats, leave or stay.


As rapidly became apparent after the vote, the Government had no coherent plan for how to leave. The EU is tolerated but not liked, so it was a massive gamble to ask for a vote to endorse the UK's continued membership.

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Re: Brexit all over?

#207874

Postby paullidd » March 15th, 2019, 12:56 pm

spigot wrote:

The EU, UK negotiating team and Parliament have manoeuvred the UK into a position where we accept May’s half in half out deal which is not Brexit or a lengthy delay and continuing damaging uncertainty to our economy while a GE takes place or we are asked to vote again because the first vote was unacceptable to Parliament.

There would be no major short term difference in leaving without a deal to leaving with a deal and no difference at all long term. Remain MPs want the UK to remain.



If, as you say, there are no short term or long term differences, why is the delay/uncertainty damaging our economy?

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Re: Brexit all over?

#207879

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » March 15th, 2019, 1:08 pm

paullidd wrote:
spigot wrote:

The EU, UK negotiating team and Parliament have manoeuvred the UK into a position where we accept May’s half in half out deal which is not Brexit or a lengthy delay and continuing damaging uncertainty to our economy while a GE takes place or we are asked to vote again because the first vote was unacceptable to Parliament.

There would be no major short term difference in leaving without a deal to leaving with a deal and no difference at all long term. Remain MPs want the UK to remain.



If, as you say, there are no short term or long term differences, why is the delay/uncertainty damaging our economy?

Uncertainty makes it difficult for people....therefore businesses to make decisions.


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