Smart Meters & Solar Panels

[PrefInvestor]

Hi All,

Got my solar system installed mid January this year and am very happy with it. Am registered for the FIT scheme but currently on the “deemed 50% of generation” basis. I would like to get a smart meter installed so that I can both take advantage of the cheaper energy tariffs that are becoming available that require you to have a meter AND to get paid for 100% of what I export (as I’m exporting something like 70% of what I generate).

However I have read quite a number of reports of people who have solar panels having problems when they install a smart meter, for instance being charged in error for what they are generating. Would appreciate any input from people who are already have solar panels and a smart meter in respect of whether it’s all OK or if there are problems then specifically what they are.

Thanks In Advance

Pref

[wilbobob]

No problem here. Exporting a little over half of my generation. The generation meter and smart meter export readings need to be submitted manually 3 monthly to OVO, but that process is on line and easy to do.
Bob

[richlist]

How do you measure how much of your solar production is being exported to the grid ?

I was told that there is no way of accurately measuring what you send to the grid. I submit readings of my total solar production every 3 months and get paid for 100% of it.

[PrefInvestor]

Hi richlist, Well my solar system has a SolarEdge inverter which comes with a web portal facility for remote monitoring which includes lots of nice charts and metrics including details of electricity exported to the grid. The system also includes a device called a “SolarEdge Export Meter” which was included specifically because I said that I wanted to be able to display details of electricity exported. I guess if you have some other make of inverter or the same make but no SolarEdge Export Meter then you may not have access to information in the electricity that you are exporting.

Regarding payments under the FIT scheme. My understanding of how this works is as follows. You submit readings from your Generation Meter at quarterly intervals and you are paid the “Generation Tariff” for each of those units. If you also have an Export Meter (a Meter which needs to be approved to submit export readings) or a Smart Meter then you also get paid the “Export Tariff” for each unit that you export. If you DON’T have one of those then the scheme operates on a “deemed 50%” basis, that is to say that it is assumed that you export 50% of whatever you generate. Unfortunately a SolarEdge Export Meter does not qualify as either of these so I am currently getting paid on the “deemed 50%” basis. So I would like to get a Smart Meter so that I can get paid for the full 70% that I know that I am exporting instead of only 50%.

When operating on the “deemed 50%” you just submit your quarterly readings and get paid an amount for that. My guess is that this is your situation.

ATB

Pref

[Nocton]

So I would like to get a Smart Meter so that I can get paid for the full 70% that I know that I am exporting instead of only 50%.

We have had solar panels almost from the start of the government's FIT scheme. Unless you have an unusually large array and an unusually low use of electricity I should be surprised if you are exporting more than 50% averaged over the whole year. At present, of course, the panels are generating almost at capacity and electricity use is low, but in the winter it is the opposite. On many days you won't export anything.

When we asked e.on for a smart meter they said we could not have it as the meter could not cope with the electricity going 'both ways'. an earlier device we had from them to measure electricity use couldn't manage it either. But maybe the second-generation smart meters can do it?

[PrefInvestor]

Hi nocton, Yes I am aware of the risk of actually losing out by being paid for what you export compared to being paid for 50% of what you generate. And I was happy to start off on the deemed 50% scheme for that reason. But now I have enough data I can see that even in January of this year I exported 65% and recently much higher levels of 70-80%. So it seems clear to me that I will likely do better if I can get paid for what I actually export.

I am also aware of the fact that to get a good energy tariff in the future you are almost certainly going to need to have a smart meter. So what I am really hoping to get here is some feedback from other people who have both solar panels and smart meters in respect of whether everything works OK as I have read that some people have had problems. Yes hopefully the next generation of smart meters will work better.

ATB

Pref

[richlist]

I find your figure of 65% export during January extraordinary......are you sure the numbers are correct?

I live in Essex......one of the sunnier parts of the country.
I have a 14 panel PV array.
In January 2019 my total solar production for that month was just under 104kwh. I need approx 4kwh every day to run my house....fridge, freezer, dishwasher, w.machine, lighting, hot tub etc then another 1-2 kwh to provide my hot water.

Basic maths will show there wasn't much spare going to the grid from my house in January. Luckily I haven't got an electric car or battery storage that would soak up any spare that there might be.

Best day in January produced 8.8kwh......worst was 0.349kwh.

Of course the summer months can produce 600kwh with plenty to spare that goes to the grid.......

[PrefInvestor]

Hi Again richlist, Well yes I am confident that the figures are correct they all come from my SolarEdge Portal so they ought to be. I thought about posting pictures of the web pages but this site has all sorts of rules on images that I would then probably fall foul of. We have a 12 panel array of 325 watt SunPower panels, our system was installed on 11/1/19 and according to the portal my January figures were as follows:-

Total Consumption 210.94 kWh
Import ie from grid. 171.67 kWh
Solar Generated 108.21 kWh
Self Consumption 39.27 kWh (36%)
Exported. 68.94 kWh (64%)

And that’s for 11/1/19 through to 31/1/19 inclusive. In Feb We exported 74% and 73% in March. So far in April we have exported 76%. On a good sunny day we are generating ~28kwh and our usage is 8-10kwh per day at most, about 1-2kWh of that being at night.

The pictures would have been much easier to understand, I don’t understand all the restrictions on images but don’t want to fall foul of them either.

ATB

Pref

PS If you would like to see the pictures I can post them elsewhere and just post a link to them here. I think that’s allowed.

[Itsallaguess]

The pictures would have been much easier to understand, I don’t understand all the restrictions on images but don’t want to fall foul of them either.

Most of the image-posting restrictions are to do with copyright, so I don't think you'll have any problems with posting your solar-panel data.

I'd certainly be interested in seeing it too, so here's some instructions if you fancy giving it a go -

https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=11255

There's a test-board here that's flushed out regularly, where you can try posting an image before committing here, if you want (although the 'Preview' option should be fine as a check, so long as you use it...) - https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=28/viewforum.php?f=28

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[PrefInvestor]

Hi itsallaguess, thanks for the info. Maybe it is simple but it all sounds like hard work to be honest. Over on ii I can just drag a picture into my post and it displays it there and then. Also I want to make sure I can ALWAYS delete material that I post as images at any time in the future, I am unsure if that’s true with the site given in the instructions.

Frankly I’d far prefer to post images on onedrive or post on ii and provide a web link, are these mechanisms permitted ?

Please advise.

Thanks

Pref

[Breelander]

Frankly I’d far prefer to post images on onedrive or post on ii and provide a web link, are these mechanisms permitted ?

You cannot upload an image to Lemon Fool, all mechanisms require a link to an image hosted on another site. The practical requirements are that the image is publicly available fron that other site. The LF forum rules require that you comply with copyright restrictions for any image you post here. If it is your own image then you own the copyright, so posting a link to your image on Onedrive, Flikr, Imgur, etc. would work, as long as the image is marked as Public on the 'host' site. If you later want to delete it from the host site or mark it Private, then even though you can't edit the LF post, it will no longer be available from your post here.

Using this site's 'lemon' logo (top left) as an example (for which LF holds the copyright, so it can be posted on LF) you can post a link to an image....

Code: Select all

https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/styles/prosilver/theme/images/lemon.png

styles/prosilver/theme/images/lemon.png

...or use the 'Img' button in the editor to embed the image in your post.

Code: Select all

 [img]https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/styles/prosilver/theme/images/lemon.png[/img]


[richlist]

I think life style has a big impact on solar consumption. Those at home can put their dishwasher or washing machine on midday when the sun shines or can cook during the day all for free. If you work and are out of the house for 10 hours a day it's a lost opportunity.

1. Solar water heating can be very cost effective as with the current weather, hot water is totally free......and it operates automatically when you are not home.

2. It seems crazy to be exporting so much to the grid and then importing so much at a higher price to run your house. Can you not just use more of your solar production instead of importing from the grid ?

3. Would it be cost effective for you to fit battery storage to save unused solar production for evening use ?I

4. Another take on your figures says that only 18.6% of your consumption is provided by solar.......I'd consider that far to low.

[scrumpyjack]

Most dishwashers and washing machines can be put on a time delay now so you can set them to run in the middle of the day when you are out.

[PrefInvestor]

Hi richlist,

Well our electricity usage has always been pretty modest sort of 8-10 units a day. In the winter months most of the generation was done on a few good days and there was no way we could use it all. Of course a lot of the usage was in the dark in the morning and at night before the panels start working,

We need to experiment with our water heating solution, currently we use gas to heat the water and I know that this uses about 0.7 cu metres of gas per day - I know that because that’s ALL of the gas we use in the summer months. We have an electric immersion heater and we need to try running that on a timer for a couple if hours a day - in the summer months anyway. That way we can make use of electricity that’s currently being exported. But at ~18p a unit for the gas saving 0.7*18p = 12.6p a day isn’t going to save us a whole lot over a year. I know that there are special solar immersion controls that you can get which I believe divert spare generated energy to heat the water, they are a few £100s plus someone to fit them. I don’t see a separate solar water heating solution bring cost effective for us either.

Battery storage is very expensive right now and the batteries are not guaranteed to last that long. I don’t see this being a cost effective approach at the moment myself.

Right now I just want to do the easy things of
a) get onto the cheapest energy tariff that we can
b) get paid for everything that we Export.

ATB

Pref

[richlist]

Yes and I guess as a plan B that might work however.....during the winter the sun/ brighter parts of the day don't always turn up at midday. Sometimes it's brightest at 10am or 2pm......and a timer set at 12.00 noon will have missed the sunshine and the lions share of any free electrickery.

[richlist]

Hi richlist,

Well our electricity usage has always been pretty modest sort of 8-10 units a day. In the winter months most of the generation was done on a few good days and there was no way we could use it all. Of course a lot of the usage was in the dark in the morning and at night before the panels start working,

We need to experiment with our water heating solution, currently we use gas to heat the water and I know that this uses about 0.7 cu metres of gas per day - I know that because that’s ALL of the gas we use in the summer months. We have an electric immersion heater and we need to try running that on a timer for a couple if hours a day - in the summer months anyway. That way we can make use of electricity that’s currently being exported. But at ~18p a unit for the gas saving 0.7*18p = 12.6p a day isn’t going to save us a whole lot over a year. I know that there are special solar immersion controls that you can get which I believe divert spare generated energy to heat the water, they are a few £100s plus someone to fit them. I don’t see a separate solar water heating solution bring cost effective for us either.

Battery storage is very expensive right now and the batteries are not guaranteed to last that long. I don’t see this being a cost effective approach at the moment myself.

Right now I just want to do the easy things of
a) get onto the cheapest energy tariff that we can
b) get paid for everything that we Export.

ATB

Pref

There is almost an argument for people without solar panels to have battery storage.
You would need to go on a dual rate electricity (e.g. Economy 7 or similar).......charge the battery overnight on the low rate tariff and then use the stored electricity to power the home during the day. You d have to crunch your own numbers on that one but over the long term it might be viable.

The long term plan for the country is to stop using gas for domestic heating altogether. In its place will be either ground or air sourced heat pumps .......which could be powered by renewables during the day. We have an air sourced heat pump as part of an air con unit in our home in Spain. It's great, cheap to use, excellent output and is both a heater in winter and an air con in summer.I

Your solar panels only producing 18.6% of your total electricity requirements is almost an argument for NOT having solar fitted in the first place. Surely it's barely cost effective at that level. I'd be looking to increase that figure.

Good luck

[PrefInvestor]

Well richlist, I don’t agree with your 18.6% figure. Before solar panels we were using 8-10 units a day, in January that came down to 5-6 and soon (with the longer days) this will probably come down to 3-4. With the FIT tariff payments I estimate that the overall savings will considerably exceed the total amount that we were paying for electricity. Over the years I am sure that electricity prices will rise and FIT payments are guaranteed for 20 years and will be uprated each year by inflation. The payback period is probably around 9-10 years but we like the green impact of self generation and are looking forward to seeing our energy bills reduce instead of increase.

I like the idea of a battery storage but I looked at it when we made this procurement and it just isn’t cost effective right now. You can easily spend £4-5,000 on a good battery system and there is no guarantee that it will last more than 15 years (and may only last 5). Also battery technology is moving fast right now what with electric vehicles etc. so things in this space may change quite rapidly in the next few years. When I first looked at solar panels many years ago they were £20,000 plus. We bought ours for a small fraction of that and I’m sure that the same will be true of batteries in the future.

You are right about the long term future for gas I’m sure, but like many other our home has a gas based water heating and CH system. I know of no cost effective alternative to this right now but I am sure with the banning of the use of gas from 2025 (I think it is) there will be an increase in focus on alternatives over time. I may be dead by then......

ATB

Pref

[PrefInvestor]

Just to clarify, thats banning of gas boilers for use in new build homes from 2025 that is, not existing homes with gas already installed in case you were wondering. I wait with interest to hear what they say about that and what we are all supposed to do.....

ATB

Pref

[DrBunsenHoneydew]

If a domestic gas boiler has a peak output of 25-40 kW it's going to be a heck of current load on the National Grid to replicate the output electrically

[PrefInvestor]

Well I’ve done a bit more reading on the gas replacement issue. Sounds like people will need to switch to an electric boiler, these cost about £1,500-£2,500 and about the same again per annum to run (13,500kw !). Well that will solve my export problem anyway !. And some of these boilers are solar compatible it would seem. Guess we’ll be offered a boiler scrappage incentive like last time and you probably won’t be forced to upgrade if you can’t afford it. But as a previous poster said, this is going to put a significant extra load on the grid, what with that an electric cars. It will be an all electric world. Oh and your gas cooker and hob will need to go as well. All sounds very expensive !.

Pref