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Rail track workers
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Direct questions and answers, this room is not for general discussion please
Direct questions and answers, this room is not for general discussion please
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- Lemon Half
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Rail track workers
I've just been reading the reports about the two Network Rail track maintenance workers who were tragically killed by a train yesterday. According to British Transport Police, the men may have not heard the train coming as they had ear defenders on.
I appreciate that some jobs are noisy and require the use of ear defenders, but it seems almost absurd that these people had no other form of warning. (OK, there should presumably have been a third person on lookout duty?) But thousands of other people in dangerous locations such as dockyards, warehouses and transport hubs don't get killed, so what other protection systems are in common usage?
BJ
I appreciate that some jobs are noisy and require the use of ear defenders, but it seems almost absurd that these people had no other form of warning. (OK, there should presumably have been a third person on lookout duty?) But thousands of other people in dangerous locations such as dockyards, warehouses and transport hubs don't get killed, so what other protection systems are in common usage?
BJ
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- 2 Lemon pips
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Re: Rail track workers
Trackside rail workers do not rely on hearing the train! They have lookouts up and down the track who sound a warning, and the section of track they are working on is also notified to the drivers when they log in so theycan sound their horns as well.
But wearing ear defenders, due to 'H&S' concerns is definitely self defeating. There was a recent report on this last year. Full reports here: https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports?keywords=Track+Worker and https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... orkers.pdf .I understand that the French deliberately have a couple of hours gap in their midday timetables to enable this sort of emergency track work without the fear of trains operating.
My solution would be for the ear defenders to incorporate a radio connected to the lookouts and the signalling system (like what level crossings use).
But wearing ear defenders, due to 'H&S' concerns is definitely self defeating. There was a recent report on this last year. Full reports here: https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports?keywords=Track+Worker and https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... orkers.pdf .I understand that the French deliberately have a couple of hours gap in their midday timetables to enable this sort of emergency track work without the fear of trains operating.
My solution would be for the ear defenders to incorporate a radio connected to the lookouts and the signalling system (like what level crossings use).
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- Lemon Slice
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Re: Rail track workers
Hardgrafter wrote:I understand that the French deliberately have a couple of hours gap in their midday timetables
for a decent lunch so you don't have to rush the second bottle of vino and making love to the mistress.
As this is DAK, yes, they should have at least one lookout who will alert them (a tap on the shoulder apparently) of an approaching train.
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- 2 Lemon pips
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Re: Rail track workers
Hardgrafter wrote:Trackside rail workers do not rely on hearing the train! They have lookouts up and down the track who sound a warning, and the section of track they are working on is also notified to the drivers when they log in so they can sound their horns as well.
But wearing ear defenders, due to 'H&S' concerns is definitely self defeating. There was a recent report on this last year. Full reports here: https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports?keywords=Track+Worker and https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... orkers.pdf .I understand that the French deliberately have a couple of hours gap in their midday timetables to enable this sort of emergency track work without the fear of trains operating.
My solution would be for the ear defenders to incorporate a radio connected to the lookouts and the signalling system (like what level crossings use).
Indeed. When GPS can tell me precisely where my Uber driver is located, it seems barely credible that people risk their lives working on a railway track with 'lookouts' posted or relying on the driver to login and check for work in progress and sound the horn (or not).
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- The full Lemon
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Re: Rail track workers
Railway work can be very noisy: can't blame them from wanting to protect the ears.
Presumably the signalling - and where available more automated safety measures - are supposed to ensure no train uses a section of track while it's getting worked on. The workers would be relying on that, but something failed. I expect the actual danger faced by road workers protected only by cones may be rather higher!
Presumably the signalling - and where available more automated safety measures - are supposed to ensure no train uses a section of track while it's getting worked on. The workers would be relying on that, but something failed. I expect the actual danger faced by road workers protected only by cones may be rather higher!
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: Rail track workers
As a general rule, anything which hinders the senses is banned lineside, and this includes ear defenders, hoods on jackets, mobile phone usage etc.
But some jobs, eg use of air powered hammers etc require ear defenders.
The first and preferred option when ear defenders are required is to get a line blockage but in some areas, in certain circumstances, where this is not possible, a "touch loookout" standing at the shoulder of the worker should be employed. Obviously his job is to look out for trains and physically nudge the worker to warn him to move away from the track.
I think a minimum sighting distance is required, such that the workers can move to a position of safety with a clear ten seconds before the passing of the fastest train. Secondary lookouts further away from the worksite, with an earlier view of approaching traffic might be necessary if, for example the worksite is on a curved section of track.
Clearly something went seriously wrong here, and as well as the RAIB, I suspect the H&S Executive will be all over this.
The RAIB's job is not to apportion blame or name names, it simply gets to the facts and makes recommendations when necessary in order to prevent a recurrence.
The problem is, over the last few years there have been quite a few very near misses, all looked at by the RAIB, and several recommendations made, most of which are reiterations of previously issued instructions.
It is thought by some that Network Rail's focus is too much on meeting performance measures at the cost of safety.
The RAIB report will make interesting, if grim, reading, but don't hold your breath waiting for it. The average time between incident and report is in the region of 12 months.
But some jobs, eg use of air powered hammers etc require ear defenders.
The first and preferred option when ear defenders are required is to get a line blockage but in some areas, in certain circumstances, where this is not possible, a "touch loookout" standing at the shoulder of the worker should be employed. Obviously his job is to look out for trains and physically nudge the worker to warn him to move away from the track.
I think a minimum sighting distance is required, such that the workers can move to a position of safety with a clear ten seconds before the passing of the fastest train. Secondary lookouts further away from the worksite, with an earlier view of approaching traffic might be necessary if, for example the worksite is on a curved section of track.
Clearly something went seriously wrong here, and as well as the RAIB, I suspect the H&S Executive will be all over this.
The RAIB's job is not to apportion blame or name names, it simply gets to the facts and makes recommendations when necessary in order to prevent a recurrence.
The problem is, over the last few years there have been quite a few very near misses, all looked at by the RAIB, and several recommendations made, most of which are reiterations of previously issued instructions.
It is thought by some that Network Rail's focus is too much on meeting performance measures at the cost of safety.
The RAIB report will make interesting, if grim, reading, but don't hold your breath waiting for it. The average time between incident and report is in the region of 12 months.
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- Lemon Half
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- Lemon Slice
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Re: Rail track workers
To cut to the chase, what happened was a failure to establish and maintain a suitable "safe system of work".
If you want more information look at the online copy of the rule book at https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/GE ... ss%202.pdf
I would assume that the work team were using "Lookout warning" (4.8) with a warning given by touch to the workers wearing ear defenders.
The third person who suffered shock was probably responsible for that touch warning.
This (on my part) is all speculation, and I could speculate further about the possible arrangements, however I guess that we will have to wait until the RAIB have finished their inquiry and issued their report, which could take months. If the incident results in H&S prosecutions, the report might take even longer to be published.
PochiSoldi
If you want more information look at the online copy of the rule book at https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/GE ... ss%202.pdf
I would assume that the work team were using "Lookout warning" (4.8) with a warning given by touch to the workers wearing ear defenders.
The third person who suffered shock was probably responsible for that touch warning.
This (on my part) is all speculation, and I could speculate further about the possible arrangements, however I guess that we will have to wait until the RAIB have finished their inquiry and issued their report, which could take months. If the incident results in H&S prosecutions, the report might take even longer to be published.
PochiSoldi
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- Lemon Slice
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Re: Rail track workers
Given both the deceased were 55+, I have an awful feeling the old-chestnut of safety critical complacency may be relevant, The GWR have relatively recently introduced New Trains which AFAIUI are far quieter than the HST they replaced. A tragedy nonetheless........pochisoldi wrote:To cut to the chase, what happened was a failure to establish and maintain a suitable "safe system of work".
If you want more information look at the online copy of the rule book at https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/GE ... ss%202.pdf
I would assume that the work team were using "Lookout warning" (4.8) with a warning given by touch to the workers wearing ear defenders.
The third person who suffered shock was probably responsible for that touch warning.
This (on my part) is all speculation, and I could speculate further about the possible arrangements, however I guess that we will have to wait until the RAIB have finished their inquiry and issued their report, which could take months. If the incident results in H&S prosecutions, the report might take even longer to be published.
PochiSoldi
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- Lemon Slice
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Re: Rail track workers
YeeWo wrote:Given both the deceased were 55+, I have an awful feeling the old-chestnut of safety critical complacency may be relevant, The GWR have relatively recently introduced New Trains which AFAIUI are far quieter than the HST they replaced. A tragedy nonetheless........pochisoldi wrote:To cut to the chase, what happened was a failure to establish and maintain a suitable "safe system of work".
If you want more information look at the online copy of the rule book at https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/GE ... ss%202.pdf
I would assume that the work team were using "Lookout warning" (4.8) with a warning given by touch to the workers wearing ear defenders.
The third person who suffered shock was probably responsible for that touch warning.
This (on my part) is all speculation, and I could speculate further about the possible arrangements, however I guess that we will have to wait until the RAIB have finished their inquiry and issued their report, which could take months. If the incident results in H&S prosecutions, the report might take even longer to be published.
PochiSoldi
Hence my mention of a possible H&S prosecution.
It's an ongoing known issue - the number of RAIB reports regarding track worker near misses, gives me the impression that working trackside is now rivalling deep sea fishing as the most dangerous work activity after driving a vehicle on the road.
PochiSoldi
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: Rail track workers
pochisoldi wrote:To cut to the chase, what happened was a failure to establish and maintain a suitable "safe system of work".
If you want more information look at the online copy of the rule book at https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/GE ... ss%202.pdf
I would assume that the work team were using "Lookout warning" (4.8) with a warning given by touch to the workers wearing ear defenders.
The third person who suffered shock was probably responsible for that touch warning.
This (on my part) is all speculation, and I could speculate further about the possible arrangements, however I guess that we will have to wait until the RAIB have finished their inquiry and issued their report, which could take months. If the incident results in H&S prosecutions, the report might take even longer to be published.
PochiSoldi
If it is the case that the lookout man has to be close enough to the workers that he can touch them, and they need ear defenders, surely the lookout man has to suffer the same volume of noise yet can't protect his hearing with ear defenders?
Watis
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- Lemon Slice
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Re: Rail track workers
Watis wrote:pochisoldi wrote:To cut to the chase, what happened was a failure to establish and maintain a suitable "safe system of work".
If you want more information look at the online copy of the rule book at https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/GE ... ss%202.pdf
I would assume that the work team were using "Lookout warning" (4.8) with a warning given by touch to the workers wearing ear defenders.
The third person who suffered shock was probably responsible for that touch warning.
This (on my part) is all speculation, and I could speculate further about the possible arrangements, however I guess that we will have to wait until the RAIB have finished their inquiry and issued their report, which could take months. If the incident results in H&S prosecutions, the report might take even longer to be published.
PochiSoldi
If it is the case that the lookout man has to be close enough to the workers that he can touch them, and they need ear defenders, surely the lookout man has to suffer the same volume of noise yet can't protect his hearing with ear defenders?
Watis
The lookout should be primarily using their eyes to look for trains, not their ears. Therefore he can wear ear defenders.
If the lookout was using their ears, it may be that the quieter nature of the new IET trains compared to old HSTs may not have helped.
An IET has 3 or 5 engines distributed along the train mounted below floor level compared to one large engine at either end of the train in a large compartment above floor level.
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- Lemon Half
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Re: Rail track workers
pochisoldi wrote:The lookout should be primarily using their eyes to look for trains, not their ears. Therefore he can wear ear defenders.
I've seen it suggested that ear defenders with built in radios or alarms exist. The train could declare its presence without having to use engine noise or the horn/whistle. For that matter the signalling system could notify the workers that a train had been freshly signalled into that section of track.
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: Rail track workers
pochisoldi wrote:
The lookout should be primarily using their eyes to look for trains, not their ears. Therefore he can wear ear defenders.
D'oh!
Of course they use their eyes and can therefore wear ear defenders!
Forgive me, it's the end of a busy week.
Watis
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- Lemon Slice
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Re: Rail track workers
Alaric wrote:pochisoldi wrote:The lookout should be primarily using their eyes to look for trains, not their ears. Therefore he can wear ear defenders.
I've seen it suggested that ear defenders with built in radios or alarms exist. The train could declare its presence without having to use engine noise or the horn/whistle. For that matter the signalling system could notify the workers that a train had been freshly signalled into that section of track.
The train declares its presence by its visibility, far in advance of its audibility.
At the end of the day , a lookout still has to be there as a fallback to tell the trackworkers to stop work and move clear.
If you partially automate the lookout's task, their focus/attention is reduced. If the automatic system then fails, you could end up with no protection at all.
The way I see it, improving UK track safety needs to look to human factors and cultural change first rather than rushing for technology.
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- The full Lemon
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Re: Rail track workers
The guys who were killed were 58 and 64 or something like that so it is perfectly possible that familiarity was a culprit. Doesn't make it any better but they must surely have been quite experienced re the dangers of working on a 'live' track.
Apart from this subject it did remind me that I had meant to comment for a while on electric cars, which are the opposite of a train, silent. How long before that silence will be blamed for a collision with a pedestrian, although did I read recently that they are to get deliberate engine noise built in?
Dod
Apart from this subject it did remind me that I had meant to comment for a while on electric cars, which are the opposite of a train, silent. How long before that silence will be blamed for a collision with a pedestrian, although did I read recently that they are to get deliberate engine noise built in?
Dod
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: Rail track workers
Train track has strange audio properties. Often, it conducts sound very well. Welded rail will "ring" as a train approaches. In many places, you can hear this from miles away. However there are audio breaks, caused usually by expansion joints or electrical insulation. Stand near one of these, and you can't hear an approaching fast train until it is literally on top of you. Rail employees have been caught out by this for years, hence the strict rules on lookouts.
Yes, but only below 12mph. I suppose tyre noise is more significant above that.
Gryff
Dod101 wrote:although did I read recently that they are to get deliberate engine noise built in?
Yes, but only below 12mph. I suppose tyre noise is more significant above that.
Gryff
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Re: Rail track workers
It’s not unusual for the spotters to be sat looking at there phones rather than paying attention, if the trains at full tilt then you have no chance relying on the driver to sound the horn.
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