Donate to Remove ads

Got a credit card? use our Credit Card & Finance Calculators

Thanks to Rhyd6,eyeball08,Wondergirly,bofh,johnstevens77, for Donating to support the site

Musk endeavours

The Big Picture Place
Howard
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2193
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 8:26 pm
Has thanked: 887 times
Been thanked: 1021 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#237570

Postby Howard » July 18th, 2019, 4:08 pm

dspp wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:I am not aiming to purchase until April 2020 though which is why I am relaxed about it at the moment.

John


Then it would be a mis-prioritisation of you as a potential customer to give you a test drive now. Right now you are just a tyre-kicker. Next year you may be for real. Right now Tesla should be prioritising real customers seeking to buy today.

It is not just a Tesla issue we are watching here. It is also about whether/how the sales channel for OEM autos can be completely restructured to eliminate dealerships. That is involving a certain amount of reprogramming of assumptions in many people, and many companies, as we are observing right here.

regards, dspp


The whole point is that Tesla customers can't buy today!!

As we've seen from other posters, it's a complete lottery when Tesla decide to deliver. UK purchasers of Model 3s who have posted on the internet found it was a waste of time reserving a car many months in advance as other later buyers got their cars before them.

Luckily for Tesla some consumers are sad enough to put up with this type of service but I doubt if they are the majority.

Please re-assure me you don't treat your prospective customers as badly as this?

yours (tongue in cheek) :lol:

Howard

BobbyD
Lemon Half
Posts: 7814
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 665 times
Been thanked: 1289 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#237571

Postby BobbyD » July 18th, 2019, 4:16 pm

dspp wrote:1. My sales colleagues are very keen to sift out what they term "statements of insincere objections" early on in the sales process. I think you and I might term these people time-wasters. As far as I am concerned if you want a Tesla test drive for a bit of fun then find a friend with a Tesla. If you want to order a car then click to buy. For Tesla the problem at present is supply, not demand, so you have to decide whether you fish or cut bait. My colleagues who have bought S's had no problems getting a test drive, but they were sincere buyers.


It seems to me that Howard, dspp and their fellow customers are keen to weed out what they might call insincere offers, companies you and I might call time wasters. If they want to receive tens of thousands of pounds in return for one of their cars they will find a way to let you drive it first, to repair it and replace parts in a timely and affordable, if not cheap, manner... If Tesla are going to make it to the mainstream they are going to have stop treating potential customers like devotees. Tesla are selling premium vehicles at what for most people is a lot of money, not knock off monitors built from the panels which failed QC shipped on the slow boat from China. As long as they have no substantial competition they might be able to get away with it, but most people laying down £40k on a new car are going to demand more.

redsturgeon wrote:Just an update on my ID3 endeavours.

Just received an email from my local dealer letting me know:

As soon as the ID.3 has been officially launched, your chosen retailer
will be in touch to make sure you're one of the first to get behind the
wheel. Feel free to contact them earlier with any questions though.


At least they are trying.

John


Congrats!

Isn't customer service a wonderful thing?

Such a simple thing to illicit such a different reaction, and for a car which hasn't been officially launched yet!

dspp
Lemon Half
Posts: 5884
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 10:53 am
Has thanked: 5825 times
Been thanked: 2127 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#237594

Postby dspp » July 18th, 2019, 5:11 pm

The peeps who have given up trying to buy Hyundai EVs have probably not moved on to buying any other Hyundai in the last year or so.

The same may happen to VAG. How long is it that they keep on announcing e-trons and ids and suchlike. Fortunately there are a lot of peeps out there who are determined to buy German, even if they won't let you order one, and even if the only people who can get a test drive are journos in cammed-out test vehicles. Or you can buy not-good-enough compliance EVs from these manufacturers.

Meanwhile at least you can order a Tesla today. Fair enough it is a slight lottery as to when it will be delivered (which is really a blend mix&match batch-prediction and logistics issue, exacerbated by being a small market at the end of a long logistics pipe for a in-demand product), but at least it will still be the best EV in the market when it is delivered. And you know what, it gets better after it is delivered, courtesy of over-the-air updates.

I don't know how this will play out, but it sure is interesting watching.

(I have long ago learnt that insincere purchasers can tie the sales team in knots thereby preventing them servicing genuine customers, and given my sales folks discretion to act accordingly. Equally I have met a lot of sales processes over the years that were highly suboptimal and could be improved. So I watch with interest how Tesla is challenging the norms in this area as well.)

regards, dspp

BobbyD
Lemon Half
Posts: 7814
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 665 times
Been thanked: 1289 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#237608

Postby BobbyD » July 18th, 2019, 6:09 pm

dspp wrote:The peeps who have given up trying to buy Hyundai EVs have probably not moved on to buying any other Hyundai in the last year or so.

The same may happen to VAG. How long is it that they keep on announcing e-trons and ids and suchlike. Fortunately there are a lot of peeps out there who are determined to buy German, even if they won't let you order one, and even if the only people who can get a test drive are journos in cammed-out test vehicles. Or you can buy not-good-enough compliance EVs from these manufacturers.

Meanwhile at least you can order a Tesla today.


The e-tron is available and selling well, the ID3 is in preproduction testing and will be unveiled in Frankfurt, and VW customer service is more attentive for a car which hasn't yet been launched than Tesla's is for the car on which the short term future of the company depends...

Howard
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2193
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 8:26 pm
Has thanked: 887 times
Been thanked: 1021 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#237624

Postby Howard » July 18th, 2019, 7:20 pm

dspp wrote:The peeps who have given up trying to buy Hyundai EVs have probably not moved on to buying any other Hyundai in the last year or so.

The same may happen to VAG. How long is it that they keep on announcing e-trons and ids and suchlike. Fortunately there are a lot of peeps out there who are determined to buy German, even if they won't let you order one, and even if the only people who can get a test drive are journos in cammed-out test vehicles. Or you can buy not-good-enough compliance EVs from these manufacturers.

Meanwhile at least you can order a Tesla today. Fair enough it is a slight lottery as to when it will be delivered (which is really a blend mix&match batch-prediction and logistics issue, exacerbated by being a small market at the end of a long logistics pipe for a in-demand product), but at least it will still be the best EV in the market when it is delivered. And you know what, it gets better after it is delivered, courtesy of over-the-air updates.

I don't know how this will play out, but it sure is interesting watching.

(I have long ago learnt that insincere purchasers can tie the sales team in knots thereby preventing them servicing genuine customers, and given my sales folks discretion to act accordingly. Equally I have met a lot of sales processes over the years that were highly suboptimal and could be improved. So I watch with interest how Tesla is challenging the norms in this area as well.)

regards, dspp


Yes, you can order a Tesla today. And when it arrives it will be included in the UK sales statistics. Your are right, a lot of people like buying German cars at the moment. Even though the car market is turning down, in June alone in the UK, BMW sold 20,000 cars, I guess quite a few of them plug in hybrids. VW sold another 20,000 cars, Audi 14,000 and Mercedes 15,000 cars. Tesla's sales are so small they aren't listed by brand, just included in "other imports". I guess they sold less cars than Ssangyong who managed to sell 122. :D

Maybe their sales process could be improved? Last year they claimed that we'd be seeing the "Invasion of Europe". I'm sure their cars aren't that bad, but when are they going to meet one of their forecasts?

regards

Howard

https://www.smmt.co.uk/vehicle-data/car-registrations/

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6438
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1562 times
Been thanked: 975 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#238016

Postby odysseus2000 » July 20th, 2019, 1:28 pm

Tesla service centres expanding, now one in Warsaw:

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/07/18/te ... in-poland/

Regards,

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6438
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1562 times
Been thanked: 975 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#238021

Postby odysseus2000 » July 20th, 2019, 1:42 pm

Lobbyists have got London to spend spend on charging points:

https://airqualitynews.com/2019/06/17/l ... s-by-2025/

This is a big win for the BEV industry and with the recent Benefit in Kind tax relief will imho be part of the tipping point for BEV. The article estimates the number of ev to grow from 20k to 330k by 2025. If this is anything like right there will have to be some serious spend on battery factories or some substantial improvement in battery/capacitor storage tech in the short term.

It will be interesting to see if Tesla commit to a European giga factory in the short term, especially if the reports on the progress of their China factory are accurate. There is a huge gap opening up as far as I can tell between estimate of BEV on the roads and estimates of battery production to power those cars.

I have expected that there will be some big subscriptions for battery factory funds, say via bond issues, but for now that market doesn't seem to be being tapped unless I am missing things. If any of these BEV estimates are to be realised big things have to start happening now.

Also wonder who will get the contracts for all the charging hardware in London. I expect to find it will all be foreign, but it would be nice if these and battery jobs could be created here.

Regards,

BobbyD
Lemon Half
Posts: 7814
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 665 times
Been thanked: 1289 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#238119

Postby BobbyD » July 20th, 2019, 9:20 pm

Tesla shut up when told to put up by the Judge.

SAN FRANCISCO — Tesla claimed Randeep Hothi was a dangerous stalker who injured a security guard and endangered Tesla employees with his car. It asked a judge to slap Hothi with a restraining order.
But Tesla dropped the suit Friday after the judge ordered the company to turn over video and audio evidence to prove its case. The company said it chose not to release the evidence to protect the privacy of its employees.

In a letter to Alameda County Superior Court Judge Jeffrey Brand, Tesla said the employees suffered “unwanted publicity and online harassment” and that “production of their private conversations to Mr. Hothi would, in Tesla’s view, inflict more damage by subjecting them to an unwarranted invasion of their privacy and further harassment.”

It was Tesla, in the lawsuit, that had revealed the employees’ names, not Hothi.

Hothi could not be reached for comment. He said outside the courtroom at an earlier hearing that Tesla was making up stories to smear him and shut him up. Video and audio evidence would clear him, he said. His attorney, Gill Sperlein, said he sent Tesla lawyers a letter Friday noting that his client plans to file a malicious prosecution suit against the company. The letter demands that Tesla retain all evidence.


- https://www.latimes.com/business/story/ ... d-the-case

BobbyD
Lemon Half
Posts: 7814
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 665 times
Been thanked: 1289 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#238289

Postby BobbyD » July 21st, 2019, 8:13 pm

Elon Musk: Dieses Auto fährt der Tesla-Chef


- https://www.nau.ch/people/welt/elon-mus ... f-65557100

BobbyD
Lemon Half
Posts: 7814
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 665 times
Been thanked: 1289 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#238498

Postby BobbyD » July 22nd, 2019, 7:22 pm

1 Pedestrian Dead, 1 Injured After Tesla Runs Red Light in SF's Tenderloin

22-year-old woman arrested on involuntary vehicular manslaughter charge

..."We do not know if it was in autonomous mode or what type of mode or if she was in control of the vehicle," said SFPD Traffic Division Sgt. Frank Harrell.

What police do know, is that after running the red light, the Tesla driver broadsided a Mini Cooper, and then hit the married couple who were walking in the crosswalk.

...Larsen: "About how fast do you think she (the Tesla driver) was going?"
Harrell: "Based on the damage, of the impact of the vehicle, I'm estimating 45 plus."
Larsen: "What's the posted speed limit?"
Harrell: "Twenty-five to 30 miles per hour."

After hitting the couple, the Tesla hit a parked SUV and came to rest on the sidewalk in front of Hotel Spero.

Police say surveillance video and data recording technology in the Tesla will provide more evidence.
"Definitely criminal charges will be filed," said Sgt. Harrell.


https://abc7news.com/tesla-driver-in-sf ... d/5409954/

Howard
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2193
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 8:26 pm
Has thanked: 887 times
Been thanked: 1021 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#238505

Postby Howard » July 22nd, 2019, 7:56 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:Lobbyists have got London to spend spend on charging points:

https://airqualitynews.com/2019/06/17/l ... s-by-2025/

This is a big win for the BEV industry and with the recent Benefit in Kind tax relief will imho be part of the tipping point for BEV. The article estimates the number of ev to grow from 20k to 330k by 2025. If this is anything like right there will have to be some serious spend on battery factories or some substantial improvement in battery/capacitor storage tech in the short term.

It will be interesting to see if Tesla commit to a European giga factory in the short term, especially if the reports on the progress of their China factory are accurate. There is a huge gap opening up as far as I can tell between estimate of BEV on the roads and estimates of battery production to power those cars.

I have expected that there will be some big subscriptions for battery factory funds, say via bond issues, but for now that market doesn't seem to be being tapped unless I am missing things. If any of these BEV estimates are to be realised big things have to start happening now.

Also wonder who will get the contracts for all the charging hardware in London. I expect to find it will all be foreign, but it would be nice if these and battery jobs could be created here.

Regards,


Let's hope the electricity cost for London chargers is less than that reported by Busybumblebee at their local charger. 30p per kWh sounds a lot.

see viewtopic.php?f=14&t=18653#p238469

That's around £30 to fill up a Tesla Model 3 from empty. If my calculations are right it would cost a similar price to get the same range from a diesel.

regards

Howard

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6438
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1562 times
Been thanked: 975 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#238556

Postby odysseus2000 » July 23rd, 2019, 12:34 am


odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6438
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1562 times
Been thanked: 975 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#238557

Postby odysseus2000 » July 23rd, 2019, 12:37 am

Howard
Let's hope the electricity cost for London chargers is less than that reported by Busybumblebee at their local charger. 30p per kWh sounds a lot.

see viewtopic.php?f=14&t=18653#p238469


Yes, it looks possible to me that many of the electric suppliers are aiming to get very good margins out of selling electric without any regulator for the foreseeable future. Another reason imho that will make roof top solar and storage attractive to anyone who has the space for it.

Regards,

BobbyD
Lemon Half
Posts: 7814
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 665 times
Been thanked: 1289 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#238567

Postby BobbyD » July 23rd, 2019, 6:55 am

Howard wrote:
odysseus2000 wrote:Lobbyists have got London to spend spend on charging points:

https://airqualitynews.com/2019/06/17/l ... s-by-2025/

This is a big win for the BEV industry and with the recent Benefit in Kind tax relief will imho be part of the tipping point for BEV. The article estimates the number of ev to grow from 20k to 330k by 2025. If this is anything like right there will have to be some serious spend on battery factories or some substantial improvement in battery/capacitor storage tech in the short term.

It will be interesting to see if Tesla commit to a European giga factory in the short term, especially if the reports on the progress of their China factory are accurate. There is a huge gap opening up as far as I can tell between estimate of BEV on the roads and estimates of battery production to power those cars.

I have expected that there will be some big subscriptions for battery factory funds, say via bond issues, but for now that market doesn't seem to be being tapped unless I am missing things. If any of these BEV estimates are to be realised big things have to start happening now.

Also wonder who will get the contracts for all the charging hardware in London. I expect to find it will all be foreign, but it would be nice if these and battery jobs could be created here.

Regards,


Let's hope the electricity cost for London chargers is less than that reported by Busybumblebee at their local charger. 30p per kWh sounds a lot.

see viewtopic.php?f=14&t=18653#p238469

That's around £30 to fill up a Tesla Model 3 from empty. If my calculations are right it would cost a similar price to get the same range from a diesel.

regards

Howard


I wonder if that is Brighton. I see they charge £1 + 30p per kWh, but they do do half price for those with local resident parking permits which would come out at only 50% more than the 10p they cite as their home cost.

TBF our Tory council can't afford to keep the street lights on at night, so I can see them jumping on any source of cash available, and that's probably why we only have a handful of council chargers.

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6438
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1562 times
Been thanked: 975 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#238597

Postby odysseus2000 » July 23rd, 2019, 9:39 am

Interesting fully charged putting forward alternatives to the media hype on the bad effects of wind turbines & electric cars. Also he describes his 70,000 miles with a Tesla model S which has been very good for him.

https://youtu.be/ezY5tW5gGjg

Regards,

Howard
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2193
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 8:26 pm
Has thanked: 887 times
Been thanked: 1021 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#238600

Postby Howard » July 23rd, 2019, 10:10 am

BobbyD wrote:
I wonder if that is Brighton.


The A 140 runs from Norwich to Ipswich I think, so likely to be East Anglia.

As you suggest, the infrastructure to put in high power chargers won't be cheap, so councils will be looking to recoup their costs. Unlike car manufacturers they won't have other revenue sources to subsidise. Obviously big cities will have pollution reduction as a high priority but it is going to cost a fortune. Forecasts are cheap, but implementation is going to be costly for council tax payers if BEV owners are to be subsidised in large volumes.

As Ody says, those with solar panels and powerwalls will be at an advantage but many of us will be reluctant to disfigure our houses with panels and the capital costs are significant.

The BMW executive who said that consumers are unwilling to pay a lot more to run BEVs in the current cost environment may prove to be right in the short and medium term, if not in the long term.

The BEV revolution is moving forward but at a very slow pace at the moment. Tesla has sold less than 400 cars this month in Norway, the most subsidised and charger-rich market in the world. :)

regards

Howard

Howard
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2193
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 8:26 pm
Has thanked: 887 times
Been thanked: 1021 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#238626

Postby Howard » July 23rd, 2019, 12:29 pm

An interesting post from Teslarati

https://www.teslarati.com/audi-e-tron-m ... sla-store/

This sort of approach may not work in California but it might work in Europe.

The reviewers' comments are interesting. Any serious environmentally-minded BEV purchaser may prefer a "more elegant pull-away" to ludicrous acceleration. And presumably Audi know what sort of car will suit a European purchaser.

regards

Howard

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6438
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1562 times
Been thanked: 975 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#238635

Postby odysseus2000 » July 23rd, 2019, 12:43 pm

Howard

As you suggest, the infrastructure to put in high power chargers won't be cheap, so councils will be looking to recoup their costs. Unlike car manufacturers they won't have other revenue sources to subsidise. Obviously big cities will have pollution reduction as a high priority but it is going to cost a fortune. Forecasts are cheap, but implementation is going to be costly for council tax payers if BEV owners are to be subsidised in large volumes.


It is an interesting situation.

Historically we would have had several companies going at this tooth & claw, raising cpital by issuing equity & then storming into build programs, but one can't do much in the UK without satisfying various local planning laws & sweetening vested interests. E.g. Who owns the pavements & the roads & how much will they charge you to add charging points & such.

The build out of charging is small compared to the build out of the gas main, the electric grid, even the transition to natural from town gas or the build out of petrol stations.

I imagine we go along at a snails place as each of the many vested interests takes bites out of the process, like the slow roll out of fibre, or Boris, if he keeps his job, commands that the UK goes BEV now.

I would like to think the politicians will make this happen & there is clearly some treasury support giving the exemptions of Benefit in Kind tax for electric vehicles, but I fear the vested interests will attempt to slow the whole business & the electric utilities will raise electric power rates substantially for nothing other than margin.

There is a huge commercial opportunity here to create wealth & make the country better, but I fear the UK is incapable of making it happen & we will just see lots of price rises & a very slow roll out creating an unhappy collision between reality & rhetoric that will eventually break to going hell for leather for BEV.

The folk who have invested in solar & storage will do very well. Some one with their own system who has a company car & saves the BIK tax will have a very substantial windfall that will offset the capex in the short term & bring benefits for perhaps 20 years. Of course many folk do no live in the same house for 20 years, but I foresee a time quickly where a house with out solar & storage will go for a discount to one that has, especially as the tax & contract that are now in place are not as generously as they were only a short time ago so that adding solar is becoming a more expensive proposition only working out well if the house hold has electric cars.

Regards,

odysseus2000
Lemon Half
Posts: 6438
Joined: November 8th, 2016, 11:33 pm
Has thanked: 1562 times
Been thanked: 975 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#238638

Postby odysseus2000 » July 23rd, 2019, 12:53 pm

Howard wrote:An interesting post from Teslarati

https://www.teslarati.com/audi-e-tron-m ... sla-store/

This sort of approach may not work in California but it might work in Europe.

The reviewers' comments are interesting. Any serious environmentally-minded BEV purchaser may prefer a "more elegant pull-away" to ludicrous acceleration. And presumably Audi know what sort of car will suit a European purchaser.

regards

Howard


Isn't marketing great!

Build an inferior product & make a sales point out of how slow it is.

Audi has built its reputation by building faster cars than BMW & now they are trying to get their customers to change their mind set.

Or to put it in more simple terms, the e-torn is not as good as a Tesla, but is priced as though it is & they have slipped the reviewers brown envelopes to make their case.

In all the years I have studied the car business I have never seen this kind of advertising work.

Regards,

Howard
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2193
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 8:26 pm
Has thanked: 887 times
Been thanked: 1021 times

Re: Musk endeavours

#238663

Postby Howard » July 23rd, 2019, 2:48 pm

odysseus2000 wrote:There is a huge commercial opportunity here to create wealth & make the country better, but I fear the UK is incapable of making it happen & we will just see lots of price rises & a very slow roll out creating an unhappy collision between reality & rhetoric that will eventually break to going hell for leather for BEV.

The folk who have invested in solar & storage will do very well. Some one with their own system who has a company car & saves the BIK tax will have a very substantial windfall that will offset the capex in the short term & bring benefits for perhaps 20 years. Of course many folk do no live in the same house for 20 years, but I foresee a time quickly where a house with out solar & storage will go for a discount to one that has, especially as the tax & contract that are now in place are not as generously as they were only a short time ago so that adding solar is becoming a more expensive proposition only working out well if the house hold has electric cars.

Regards,


Ody

You may be right, but we consumers can be motivated by different stimuli. Where I live, houses with ugly utilitarian add-on solar panels on the roof sell at a discount to houses which look more attractive to a buyer. New-build houses are incorporating much more tastefully located panel arrays. But these aren't cheap!

Friends and neighbours who installed panels at the optimum time in 2008/9 paid about £10k for their installations and have been getting a return of around £1,000 a year since then, less the cost of replacing inverters which have started to cost around £2,000 to have fitted around now. Quite a nice return as long as their panels don't need any expensive maintenance.

However, I notionally invested the 10k in my ISA portfolio and this has nearly trebled in value since 2008 in capital terms and with dividends re-invested I still have the 30k capital which is now earning more than £1,000 a year in dividends. And I don't have scruffy-looking ten-year old panels disfiguring my roof. :D

My point is that a huge market segment of the car-buying public aren't persuaded by engineering arguments but by intangible and cultural features. Gentle and refined acceleration and a nicely designed hatchback may suit our style of driving better than the alternative. And, yes, we might pay for panels tastefully hidden on a new house but we aint paying a premium to move to an eyesore!

regards

Howard


Return to “Macro and Global Topics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests