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Will help

including wills and probate
JessUK98
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Will help

#243853

Postby JessUK98 » August 12th, 2019, 7:38 pm

Hi, my granmother died last week aged 93. My mother is first executor named on the will, and I am the second. My mother isn’t coping well with this, so looks like I will need to help her with most of it.
The post mortem was done today and we’ve been told we can call to make an appointment to register the death tomorrow.

My grandmother sold her house about 2 years ago to my sister at 30k below the market rate. She then moved in with her twin sister and her husband. She paid them a nominal rent. So she has no property in bricks and mortar, and nothing of any particular value possessions wise (no car). She has about £38k in her savings/bank. She has no debt (all utilities etc are paid for by her sister & her husband and included as part of her rent), and was a widower/no partner. In her will she has left all her money to be split between her grand children and great grand children (8 in total), her jewellery (no pearls or giant diamonds I don’t think!) to my mother (plus anything else of hers she wants). My Uncle verbally said he wants nothing so is not listed as a benificiary on the will (but is welcome to take anything of hers possession wise). Anything that is left is to go to charity.

Does this need to go to probate?
I’m thinking there would be no inheritance tax to pay?

So basically I think we need to register her death and get a reference number to use the governments “tell us once” service. Have the funeral, Notify her bank & insurance compamies etc so we can have access to that, pay for the funeral and divvy out the money as per her wishes? Or is that too simple?

TIA,

Jess

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Re: Will help

#243855

Postby PinkDalek » August 12th, 2019, 8:00 pm

Condolences.

JessUK98 wrote:... nothing of any particular value possessions wise (no car). She has about £38k in her savings/bank. ...

Does this need to go to probate?


It is likely to depend on the financial institution(s) that hold her savings, as they quite often have differing limits as to when they require a Grant of Representation (noting their commentary).

Here's a helpful list pulled together by the Co-Op back in 2018:

https://www.co-oplegalservices.co.uk/media-centre/articles-may-aug-2018/bank-limits-for-probate/

Are any shareholdings involved or is it all 'cash'?

I’m thinking there would be no inheritance tax to pay?


Looks unlikely based on what you've stated but one might ask what happened to the house proceeds? Any other major gifts in the last 7 years or was the £30,000 the only effective gift?

... and get a reference number to use the governments “tell us once” service


If relevant, the "Tell Us Once" service might not inform the relevant Council. See the list of exclusions below:

https://www.gov.uk/after-a-death/organisations-you-need-to-contact-and-tell-us-once

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Re: Will help

#243886

Postby Clitheroekid » August 13th, 2019, 12:31 am

JessUK98 wrote:Does this need to go to probate?

The simple answer is probably not. As has been said, the amount in bank accounts is probably within the limit whereby you can withdraw it on an `indemnity' basis.

This means that the bank will allow you to take the money provided you sign a form agreeing that if someone turns up with a better claim to the money (for example, if your grandmother had made a later Will leaving everything to the Cats' Home) you would have to repay the money to the bank.

However, you must always bear in mind that as your grandmother's executors you are legally responsible for her estate, and there are various risks involved, though in many cases they are theoretical.

These risks don't really matter if you are both the executor and the only beneficiary, as is often the case when a parent dies. You get all the estate anyway, so if anything goes wrong you can just use the money you've inherited to sort it out.

But where you are the executor and you are receiving either nothing or only a small part of the estate the risks increase considerably. This is because as an executor you are personally liable if you cause someone to incur a loss as a result of your mishandling of the estate.

One such risk is that there are unknown creditors of the estate. For example, imagine a case where your grandmother had somehow run up a tax bill of £20k that you didn't know about and that you made no enquiries to find out about it. In blissful ignorance you distribute the £38k amongst the beneficiaries and they spend it.

A year later a man from HMRC comes knocking on your door, having found out about the death. You would be personally liable for payment of the tax bill, and although you might be able to recover payment from the beneficiaries they might equally by then be penniless, having blown the lot and leaving you £20k out of pocket.

Likewise, you are legally liable towards the beneficiaries. So, for example imagine that one of the grandchildren is only 8 years old. You obviously can't pay him his share of the estate directly, so you decide to pay his mum instead. Over the next few years she becomes an alcoholic, spends his money on booze and ends up penniless, so that when he reaches 18, eagerly expecting his legacy of around £4k plus 12 years' interest, there's nothing there. You would again be personally liable to pay him that money, as you had breached your legal duty as an executor to safeguard his inheritance.

I do, of course, realise that these are extreme scenarios, and that in the vast majority of cases there are no such problems. But they are both real life examples from estates that I've dealt with.

If you do decide to apply for probate, I should warn you that because of the `gift' of £30k in selling the house at undervalue you won't be able to use the simplified tax return for small estates, and you'll need to complete the extremely tedious and complicated IHT400 form instead - https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... e-v2.0.pdf

I’m thinking there would be no inheritance tax to pay?

From what you've told us that's correct. Inheritance tax only potentially becomes payable when the estate (including lifetime gifts) is worth more than £325k, and this estate is a long way short of that.

I'm not trying to frighten you, and it's probably quite OK for you to go ahead without probate, but people often do so without even appreciating that there are any risks involved. Provided you're aware of them and can be confident they don't apply then you should be fine.

JessUK98
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Re: Will help

#243907

Postby JessUK98 » August 13th, 2019, 7:59 am

Thank you both very much for your help.

With regards to the great grand children who are all still minors I was thinking of opening up savings accounts in their names where the money cannot be touched until they are 18, as I personally don’t trust at least one of their parents not the “borrow” it to pay off their debts with the intent to later pay it back (and I’m pretty certain this would never happen despite the good intention to do so). I will be putting my sons money into his Junior cash ISA which won’t be touched until he is 18. I was thinking of opening something similar for them.

2 of the children are residents of another EU country, would I be able to do this for them as well? Either UK accounts with their address or somehow set up a country specific account for them? Or does the fact 3 of the beneficiaries (adult cousin and her 2 children - Uncle moved abroad) being of another nationality complicate matters further?

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Re: Will help

#243913

Postby mutantpoodle » August 13th, 2019, 8:38 am

be careful opening ISAs etc for other peoples children without telling at least the parents.
they might..(unlikely based on what you have said) have already set up such things which may only be allowed one per year
you might be causing a break of the regs!

JessUK98
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Re: Will help

#243920

Postby JessUK98 » August 13th, 2019, 9:00 am

mutantpoodle wrote:be careful opening ISAs etc for other peoples children without telling at least the parents.
they might..(unlikely based on what you have said) have already set up such things which may only be allowed one per year
you might be causing a break of the regs!


I know my niece and nephew don’t have ISAs, although they do have generic savings accounts. I’m not sure about my cousins children, but I’d need to talk to her to get address details etc anyway.

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Re: Will help

#243921

Postby Chrysalis » August 13th, 2019, 9:01 am

You haven’t said what happened to the sale proceeds from her house? Was any of it gifted? You’ll need information about any gifts in the last 7 years.

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Re: Will help

#243928

Postby scrumpyjack » August 13th, 2019, 9:25 am

JessUK98 wrote:Thank you both very much for your help.

With regards to the great grand children who are all still minors I was thinking of opening up savings accounts in their names where the money cannot be touched until they are 18, as I personally don’t trust at least one of their parents not the “borrow” it to pay off their debts with the intent to later pay it back (and I’m pretty certain this would never happen despite the good intention to do so). I will be putting my sons money into his Junior cash ISA which won’t be touched until he is 18. I was thinking of opening something similar for them.

2 of the children are residents of another EU country, would I be able to do this for them as well? Either UK accounts with their address or somehow set up a country specific account for them? Or does the fact 3 of the beneficiaries (adult cousin and her 2 children - Uncle moved abroad) being of another nationality complicate matters further?


You can set up accounts in your name as bare trustee for them. Most brokers will let you set up accounts for children who do not live in the UK as long as they live in the EEA (European Economic Area). But be careful, any income will be legally that of the child and some countries (eg Nordic ones) do not have any tax free allowance for investment income, so you could end up having to deal with their tax authorities and pay small amounts of tax.

I doubt you could set up a Junior ISA for a child living abroad, though a pre-existing JISA can continue even though the child has moved to an EEA country. In any case, as far as I am aware, you can only set up a JISA where the name person responsible for it is the person having custody of the child.

JessUK98
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Re: Will help

#243937

Postby JessUK98 » August 13th, 2019, 9:47 am

Jabd2001 wrote:You haven’t said what happened to the sale proceeds from her house? Was any of it gifted? You’ll need information about any gifts in the last 7 years.


I’d have to check on that. As far as I’m aware she used one of those equity release companies to get cash to pay off her partners children when he died (they just “lived in sin” for about 20ish years). This was back in 2011. Then the cash in the bank is what she has left over from the sale of the house after all debtors had been paid off. No cash gifts to anyone from that (unless you count the £30k under the valued amount she sold the house to my sister for).

JessUK98
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Re: Will help

#243939

Postby JessUK98 » August 13th, 2019, 9:51 am

scrumpyjack wrote:
JessUK98 wrote:Thank you both very much for your help.

With regards to the great grand children who are all still minors I was thinking of opening up savings accounts in their names where the money cannot be touched until they are 18, as I personally don’t trust at least one of their parents not the “borrow” it to pay off their debts with the intent to later pay it back (and I’m pretty certain this would never happen despite the good intention to do so). I will be putting my sons money into his Junior cash ISA which won’t be touched until he is 18. I was thinking of opening something similar for them.

2 of the children are residents of another EU country, would I be able to do this for them as well? Either UK accounts with their address or somehow set up a country specific account for them? Or does the fact 3 of the beneficiaries (adult cousin and her 2 children - Uncle moved abroad) being of another nationality complicate matters further?


You can set up accounts in your name as bare trustee for them. Most brokers will let you set up accounts for children who do not live in the UK as long as they live in the EEA (European Economic Area). But be careful, any income will be legally that of the child and some countries (eg Nordic ones) do not have any tax free allowance for investment income, so you could end up having to deal with their tax authorities and pay small amounts of tax.

I doubt you could set up a Junior ISA for a child living abroad, though a pre-existing JISA can continue even though the child has moved to an EEA country. In any case, as far as I am aware, you can only set up a JISA where the name person responsible for it is the person having custody of the child.


Mmmm, they do live in a Nordic country. This sounds like a total PITA. I’m all for using a solicitor, but the legal fees are likely to take a massive chunk out of that 38k and certain benificiaries are opposed to this.

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Re: Will help

#243950

Postby Slarti » August 13th, 2019, 10:27 am

When you register the death, depending on how many banks, insurance companies and the state have to be informed, get about 6 copies of the death certificate as many organisations will not accept copies.

Don't forget to inform Department of Work and Pensions of her death so they can stop the state pension.

And the best advice I received when doing this sort of thing is write it all down. One list of to do and one of done, phone calls made, letters written, etc.
makes it easier in the long run.

Slarti

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Re: Will help

#243973

Postby scrumpyjack » August 13th, 2019, 11:58 am

The other point you may need to consider, if the children live in a Nordic country, is Gifts tax. In Denmark for example a child can only receive about £7,000 a year before gift tax is payable! If they inherit under a Will from a close relative that may not apply, but if you give it to them it may.

As you say Nordic tax is a complete PITA and not easy to find accurate information on as regards children and investments.

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Re: Will help

#244101

Postby gryffron » August 13th, 2019, 9:51 pm

mutantpoodle wrote:be careful opening ISAs etc for other peoples children without telling at least the parents.

You can't. Only parent or legal guardian can open a Junior ISA. Although anyone can pay into it once it is opened.

Gryff

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Re: Will help

#244122

Postby PinkDalek » August 14th, 2019, 2:01 am

Slarti wrote:... Don't forget to inform Department of Work and Pensions of her death so they can stop the state pension. ...


Is this not dealt with via the "Tell Us Once" service (I can't recall)?

JessUK98
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Re: Will help

#244145

Postby JessUK98 » August 14th, 2019, 7:48 am

PinkDalek wrote:
Slarti wrote:... Don't forget to inform Department of Work and Pensions of her death so they can stop the state pension. ...


Is this not dealt with via the "Tell Us Once" service (I can't recall)?


Yes, it should be. Got appointment to register the death today so will soon find out for sure! I think by looking at her statements she will have had a payment for her pension paid in a few days after her death. So I presume that will need to be repaid. She also got part of her care paid for as well (she had a carer come in twice a day). She had to pay about half of that herself and there is an outstanding bill to settle. Other than those I can’t find any other creditors she owes.

It doesn’t look like we need to go through probate and are below the threshold for IHT. No other “gifts” in the last 7 years other than selling her house for 30k less to my sister.

I can ensure that something like a junior ISA is set up for my niece & nephew, so my Nordic bretheren are my main concern. I can perhaps ensure their mother opens an equivalent account there for the children and pay it directly into those accounts? Then any tax liable would be the responsibilty of the parents?

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Re: Will help

#244165

Postby Slarti » August 14th, 2019, 9:17 am

PinkDalek wrote:
Slarti wrote:... Don't forget to inform Department of Work and Pensions of her death so they can stop the state pension. ...


Is this not dealt with via the "Tell Us Once" service (I can't recall)?


Ah, things change and sometimes for the better.

10 years ago when we last had to handle this stuff, this did not exist.


Slarti

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Re: Will help

#244177

Postby Dod101 » August 14th, 2019, 10:31 am

It is not relevant for this case, but friend of mine recently got very exercised with the 'Tell us once service' when he discovered that they also advised the DVLA to cancel the Vehicle Tax on his wife's car which he had used to drive to the Registrars and it was sitting outside. Her was not stopped on his return trip home.

Dod

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Re: Will help

#244183

Postby PinkDalek » August 14th, 2019, 10:54 am

Dod101 wrote:It is not relevant for this case, but friend of mine recently got very exercised with the 'Tell us once service' when he discovered that they also advised the DVLA to cancel the Vehicle Tax on his wife's car which he had used to drive to the Registrars and it was sitting outside.


From memory, if doing the Tell Us Once service in person, one can delete items that you don't wish to be reported should one so wish. Presumably the online version has such an option but I haven't used that.

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Re: Will help

#244197

Postby MyNameIsUrl » August 14th, 2019, 11:30 am

JessUK98 wrote: I think by looking at her statements she will have had a payment for her pension paid in a few days after her death. So I presume that will need to be repaid.

Yes, after you contact DWP they will write and ask for a portion back. Some time later you will receive a thankyou letter, which made me wonder how often they receive repayments...

PS If both state pension and attendance allowance were being paid, I suggest you contact the relevant departments separately, even if they say they will pass details on.

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Re: Will help

#244222

Postby robbelg » August 14th, 2019, 1:08 pm

MyNameIsUrl wrote:Yes, after you contact DWP they will write and ask for a portion back. Some time later you will receive a thankyou letter, which made me wonder how often they receive repayments...



As I posted some while ago, I received such a letter more than a year later.

I discovered that it is a request not a demand and ignored it - of course a timely request should be honoured.

Rob


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