The future of the planet.

[G37y]

I think the youth of today have a different solution to overpopulation and saving the planet. Why not just have compulsory euthanasia for the over 70s? That would solve the pensions problem, The housing problem and the tricky situation of the old farts spending all the families fortune before the younger generation got to enjoy it?

[JohnB]

21 surely, else Logan will chase you down.

[richlist]

I don't care.....genuinely I dont care.......like a very large percentage of the population.

I don't see many people changing their lifestyles to make even the smallest effort to reduce their carbon footprint.

Are we doomed.....probably yes.......but it's not going to be my problem is it?

[UncleIan]

I think the youth of today have a different solution to overpopulation and saving the planet.

Yes, large numbers are going gender neutral or some other flavour of "not straight" and won't be procreating anytime soon. As this trend accelerates around the world, expect population collapse. The earth will be much better off, but totally indifferent.

[richlist]

Here's an example of why I don't care.....I've just had a doctor's appointment......I could walk the couple of miles to the surgery and back instead of using my car. However it looks like rain so I drove, I stayed dry, got home quicker and life was a lot easier.

Ditching cars ain't gonna work for me unless you can arrange/ guarantee that I won't get rained on.

There were 50 other people in the car park who didn't walk either......and probably never will.

[scotia]

Here's an example of why I don't care.....I've just had a doctor's appointment......I could walk the couple of miles to the surgery and back instead of using my car. However it looks like rain so I drove, I stayed dry, got home quicker and life was a lot easier.
Ditching cars ain't gonna work for me unless you can arrange/ guarantee that I won't get rained on.
There were 50 other people in the car park who didn't walk either......and probably never will.

But I suspect your car is much less of a gas guzzler than those you drove in your youth, and it almost certainly emitted less harmful exhaust fumes. Every Little Helps

[scotia]

An interesting article which seems to imply that the destructive habits of humans have actually improved the planet
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-49829177
The Pentlands are just south of Edinburgh - and make very pleasant walking. They reach about 1900ft in height.

[xeny]

You seem very certain of the truth of your theory. However, people in the pyramid past the next generation, or maybe the one after that, will probably be net zero CO2 emitters over their lifetimes. Or certainly much lower emitters, following the prevailing trends of decarbonisation. Is that a factor you have included in your calculations?

So it's important to collapse the pyramid sooner rather than later?

[djbenedict]

However, people in the pyramid past the next generation, or maybe the one after that, will probably be net zero CO2 emitters over their lifetimes.

Or certainly much lower emitters, following the prevailing trends of decarbonisation.

But might you agree that this 'something might turn up tomorrow' approach seems to be how we've got ourselves into this little pickle in the first place?

I would say that ignorance was a more important historical (and current) factor.

You seem to be hanging your hat very firmly on un-developed countries failing to develop more ferocious CO2-guzzling habits, and now you're also hoping that a 'carbon-neutral approach' to things, which is likely to be very, very costly in terms of time, effort and funding, is going to give the planet a quick wipe with a cloth and things will be as right as rain....

Then there are others who simply point to the growing numbers of people on the planet, and saying, erm, shall we take look at how we might help to fix the issue at source, instead of coming up with a number of down-stream wish-lists that may or may not materialise in terms of their effectiveness......

We disagree about what "the source" of the issue is. As I keep pointing out, it is perfectly possible for large numbers of people to produce very little CO2 e.g. as Africa's population does, while small numbers of people produce large amounts of CO2, like the USA's population does.

Ergo, elementary logic says... absolute numbers of people are not the problem. Quite why you insist on continuing to bark up this tree I have no idea. The problem is what people do.

[djbenedict]

You seem very certain of the truth of your theory. However, people in the pyramid past the next generation, or maybe the one after that, will probably be net zero CO2 emitters over their lifetimes. Or certainly much lower emitters, following the prevailing trends of decarbonisation. Is that a factor you have included in your calculations?

So it's important to collapse the pyramid sooner rather than later?

So the size of the pyramid is irrelevant.

[sunnyjoe]

OVERALL electric cars are just slightly more efficient than typical petrol ones. Those heavy batteries really kill the performance. And the very best modern internal combustion engines will beat electrics. Unless they're sat in a traffic jam.

Do you have any evidence to support these assertions?

[servodude]

OVERALL electric cars are just slightly more efficient than typical petrol ones. Those heavy batteries really kill the performance. And the very best modern internal combustion engines will beat electrics. Unless they're sat in a traffic jam.

Do you have any evidence to support these assertions?

I'd be interested to see that too;
- or the definition of "overall"
- or the measure of efficiency used



-sd

[scotia]

Do you have any evidence to support these assertions?

I would also like to see evidence.
I have scoured the web for actual thermal efficiencies of petrol engines, and the best that I found was a claim by Toyota that their latest engines will be 38% thermally efficient - but I suppose that figure will only be achieved when operating over an optimal power range.
On electric cars, assuming that they use electricity generated by fossil fuel, then the thermal efficiencies of the best combined Gas/Steam generators is claimed to be around 60%. Then you have to take the distribution losses, and the losses in battery charging, the efficiency of the electric motors, and the weight penalty of the battery. But I suspect these losses in total will still leave an advantage with the electric car.

[gryffron]

Google.

Electric car efficiency also around 60%. So AT BEST 60% (power station) * 60% (vehicle) = 36%

Google quotes typical overall energy efficiency as 24% for EV vs 20% ICE. Probably figures from America.

Add in the greater vehicle weight for batteries and that isn't going to leave much difference for overall energy usage

Gryff

[scrumpyjack]

But electricity is increasingly coming from sources not generating CO2 (mainly wind power) and also much of the charging of EVs happens at night when some generated electricity would otherwise go to waste.

One can see the Wind power / EVs / stored wind energy eventually leading to the end of fossil fuel generation. EVs are the future and petrol cars will gradually die out.

[scotia]

And I have had another bash at comparing efficiencies of Electric Cars with Petrol Cars - with (to me) somewhat surprising results.
I tried to calculate the fuel cost (minus tax) per mile - which should give some indication of relative efficiencies.

The current Electricity Cost is variable around the UK, but I have used a figure of 15p per kWh (i.e. 15.75p which includes 5% VAT)
I have looked at the Nissan Leaf - a 40kwh battery, and a range of up to 168 miles.
Hence Cost per mile = 40*15/168 = 3.52p

I have taken the current petrol price as 128p per litre. Removing VAT this becomes 106.7p, and removing excise duty this becomes 48.7p
I have assumed a miles per litre as 13 (59 mpg). This gives a cost per mile of 3.75p

That result is much closer than I expected. And the 15p per kWh is a domestic rate - I don't know what rate is charged at a commercial fast charger.

So when we all change to Electric, and the government applies tax rates to equal what they currently receive for petrol sales, then Electric Cars are not going to be significantly cheaper to run than Petrol cars.

I would welcome anyone looking over my figures and reporting any boobs that I have made.

[JohnB]

This 2 year old Guardian article has nice graphics showing the efficiency advantages of electric cars, and the market has moved on since then in favour of them.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/ng ... ctric-cars

And all the oil and coal powered station arguments are rapidly becoming irrelevant as renewables grow. Electric car batteries are a good load balancing system for variable power sources like solar and wind. Even now in the UK, when you charge your car, your electricity is coming from gas or renewables, not oil or coal.

[xeny]

You seem very certain of the truth of your theory. However, people in the pyramid past the next generation, or maybe the one after that, will probably be net zero CO2 emitters over their lifetimes. Or certainly much lower emitters, following the prevailing trends of decarbonisation. Is that a factor you have included in your calculations?

So it's important to collapse the pyramid sooner rather than later?

So the size of the pyramid is irrelevant.

surely the size of the pyramid in the next generation is utterly critical then? We're currently increasing CO2 at about 2.5ppm/year. The higher people * standard of living (controlling for CO2 intensity) is, the faster it will go up each year.

Don't we want to minimise the level it is at when we get to these hoped for net zero CO2 emitters so they're starting off with as low a level as practicable?

[richlist]

Car pollution is just one part of the bigger picture.......heating, air conditioning, industry/ business, aircraft, developing countries, destruction of the rain forests, continuing use of coal, the attitude of the USA etc etc.

Makes my car trip to the doctor this morning look totally unimportant.

Let's face it......nothing is going to change significantly for many years.

I think the whole green movement is an insult to my intelligence......

[sunnyjoe]

Google.

Electric car efficiency also around 60%. So AT BEST 60% (power station) * 60% (vehicle) = 36%

Google quotes typical overall energy efficiency as 24% for EV vs 20% ICE. Probably figures from America.

Add in the greater vehicle weight for batteries and that isn't going to leave much difference for overall energy usage

Gryff

Ignoring the efficiency figures which lack definition, greater weight of EVs due to batteries does not necessarily translate to reduced efficiency.

Consider the three basic operating modes of a vehicle in motion: acceleration, cruising and deceleration

During acceleration from rest, more energy is needed to bring a heavier EV up to cruising speed. The greater efficiency of a battery and electric motor converting electrochemical energy to kinetic energy (~95%) compared with an ICE (~38%) means that the EV might not use more energy (ignoring getting the energy to the vehicle)

While cruising kinetic energy is maintained but energy is expended due to wind and tyre resistance. The weight of the vehicle is not a significant factor.

During deceleration to rest, most of the kinetic energy of an EV is returned to the battery (round trip efficiency typically >85%). However all of the kinetic energy of an ICE is lost to heating the brakes