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Basket of Eight: 2019 review

Closed-end funds and OEICs
Dod101
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Re: Basket of Eight: 2019 review

#256036

Postby Dod101 » October 5th, 2019, 2:33 pm

richfool wrote:[ I have to say I don't necessarily agree on limiting the UK income IT's to just one or two, as long as one has good reasons for holding the additional trusts. For example, In addition to CTY, I hold FGT for its conviction holdings, Shires for its exposure to smaller coys and fixed interest, Mercantile for its mid cap exposure and MUT because it has had a better capital return record than many, including CTY. Noted it could be argued that some of those are less focussed on "income" (e.g. FGT & MRC).

There could also be an argument for holding several trusts by those wanting a regular income stream to spread out the dividend payment dates.


I thought that the discussion was primarily about income trusts. I too hold Finsbury Growth and Income as well as Caledonia but neither of those are income trusts and there are not many UK income trusts that are any good. That I assume is because they are fishing in the same pool as most HYPers and we all know where that gets us these days. I see buying say Edinburgh or City of London as a one stop HYP and so diversifying overseas for income makes sense surely.

Dod

staffordian
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Re: Basket of Eight: 2019 review

#256050

Postby staffordian » October 5th, 2019, 3:17 pm

Dod101 wrote:
At the risk of repeating what others have said, there is simply no point in buying more than one UK income IT. City of London or Edinburgh are the two most obvious ones. There are a number of ITs investing overseas which are producing the required income and of course they also have the ability these days to use realised capital gains to fund their dividend. Quite a few have been mentioned on this thread already.

Dod

Yes, I tend to agree but given how differently mine have performed, (mainly capitalwise rather than income wise, admitedly), I think just the one might be a bit too much like having all one's eggs in one (IT?) basket. Having started with a Luni B7 I too have cast the net wider to ensure exposure to the wider world, though I've so far avoided speciality ITs such as infrastructure or renewables.

Specialising in this way might well be wise but to me almost seems like building an HYP all over again, weighing up the pros and cons of sectors and trusts rather than just buying and forgetting.

Staffordian

Dod101
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Re: Basket of Eight: 2019 review

#256054

Postby Dod101 » October 5th, 2019, 3:35 pm

I think staffordian is arguing in favour of the big generalists or what now seem to be called flexible trusts. I go along with that as I have never been too keen on trusts investing in a particular industry or geographical area. Leave the manager the maximum scope and then let him get on with it.

Dod

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Re: Basket of Eight: 2019 review

#256058

Postby monabri » October 5th, 2019, 4:23 pm

A little bit more on the B7 to B8 comparison....

In column 1, I've listed if the Investment Trust was from the basket of 7 (B7) or from the basket of 8 (B8). For simplicity, I've removed the last digit in column 3 - "Delta SP %" column which indicates the change in share price over the 18 years.

The "winner" is, surprisingly, Mercantile ahead of Bankers.



The biggest changes in share prices over the 18 years are not confined uniquely to B7 or to B8 - as we see EDIN, CTY and IVI creeping in at positions 4 to 6 and BCI from B7 as the dunce at the bottom of the class (although Merchants is trying hard to wear that cap).

Why has Mercantile done so well? - maybe this is explained in that it invests predominately in medium and smaller companies and not the FTSE100 elephants. I believe (and I may be wrong here so please correct me if otherwise !) that growth has come from the lower divisions of the FTSE All Share and the big companies have done..not a lot of growing (FTSE100 in year 1999 versus year 2019 ~ 7000-ish).

From their latest Mercantile annual report - freely available on t'internet - here's a link to where it can be downloaded - we see the split between the FTSE100 constituents and the mid caps.

https://am.jpmorgan.com/gb/en/asset-man ... /documents

Image

From the Mercantile annual report we see the way in which the trust has outperformed its benchmark (noting that the benchmark is ex-FTSE100 and ex-IT shares). So, it would appear that the fund is also well run.

Image


(Back to the baskets!)


The next two graphs look at the total return of the B7 and B8 funds over the last 5 years (software limitations to 5 years and 7 curves). Which ITs would have yielded the best total return (yes..I like a nice yield but not at the expense of capital)? I reckon 5 years is a reasonable time period which shows up a few things of interest.

First the Basket B7
The main observation is that the total returns on the basket constituents have been quite diverse, ranging from superstars Bankers & Mercantile down to sleepy PLI whose report card might read "is lazy, done the bare minimum, expected more from AIC Dividend Heroes member".

(note: graphs created by monabri using Hargreaves Lansdown comparator tool available on the HL website)

Image

Basket B8
Once again, total returns over the last 5 years. Note Merchants is omitted as the B8 takes 8 curves to show and the software is limited to 7 (but MRCH is actually towards the top end of the B8 family).

The main observation is that the total returns are more tightly banded than the B& family.


Image

Conclusion & Thoughts
(As we are not on the HYP-P board I can mention Total Return (TR) and get away with it ;) ...yes. I know, the baskets were for income but not at the expense of capital)

The Total Return investor in me would have been wishing that they'd had gone overweight in the lower yielding Mercantile & the Bankers ITs..(hindsight would be wonderful in that situation). The Total Return investor would have also been surprised at the B7 results in terms of the spread of the B7 results in terms of total return, wishing that it was a "B6" basket with BCI dropped ;)

Questions
Will UK smaller companies continue to deliver superior returns or will they be 'caught by the Brexits'? Who knows but surely it must be reasonable to include a fund in a basket which contains mid-caps...but should it be a UK-centric fund ?

Will the FTSE100 elephants start to gallop (well, maybe canter a bit) in the near future assuming Brexit is sorted out? The yields on offer and the UK reportedly being good value (https://www.starcapital.de/en/research/ ... in-charts/) might see a reversal in the tables with the likes of PLI/EDIN benefitting from a revival in the big(ger) capital shares.

Personally, I think that growth will be coming from elsewhere and that it would be wiser to have a spread of investments (via ITs or ETFs) focused on income and growth in other countries and not to have all the eggs in UK baskets.

staffordian
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Re: Basket of Eight: 2019 review

#256062

Postby staffordian » October 5th, 2019, 4:36 pm

Dod101 wrote:I think staffordian is arguing in favour of the big generalists or what now seem to be called flexible trusts. I go along with that as I have never been too keen on trusts investing in a particular industry or geographical area. Leave the manager the maximum scope and then let him get on with it.

Dod

Exactly so!

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Re: Basket of Eight: 2019 review

#256959

Postby floyd3592 » October 10th, 2019, 2:45 pm

mattman74 wrote:Thank you for doing this Luni.

One upon a time I started building a B8 type portfolio but came to the conclusion that it would just involve too many ITs fishing in the same pond as my (now slowly reducing) HYP. In the interests of diversification I stuck with CTY as my UK income IT. Not a daft decision.

I have bought over the years:
high income bond ITs (CMHY, HDIV, NCYF), REITS (BLND, NRR, BCPT, BBOX), international income (EAT, JEMI, JETI, MYI), asset backed (SQN, infrastructure (3IN, HICL) and renewables (TRIG, BSIF and UKW). All these ITs fish in slightly different ponds but give a decent and usually rising income.

Matt


Mattman I'm in a similar quandary to you. I am leaning to following John Baron's 'winter' portfolio but I'm also concerned as you put it of those "ITs fishing in the same pond" as my UK based HYP of individual shares. Could u possibly advise what ur 'non UK' IT portfolio currently consists of and the current yields?

Cheers
Floyd

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Re: Basket of Eight: 2019 review

#256966

Postby monabri » October 10th, 2019, 3:42 pm

floyd3592 wrote:
mattman74 wrote:Thank you for doing this Luni.

One upon a time I started building a B8 type portfolio but came to the conclusion that it would just involve too many ITs fishing in the same pond as my (now slowly reducing) HYP. In the interests of diversification I stuck with CTY as my UK income IT. Not a daft decision.

I have bought over the years:
high income bond ITs (CMHY, HDIV, NCYF), REITS (BLND, NRR, BCPT, BBOX), international income (EAT, JEMI, JETI, MYI), asset backed (SQN, infrastructure (3IN, HICL) and renewables (TRIG, BSIF and UKW). All these ITs fish in slightly different ponds but give a decent and usually rising income.

Matt


Mattman I'm in a similar quandary to you. I am leaning to following John Baron's 'winter' portfolio but I'm also concerned as you put it of those "ITs fishing in the same pond" as my UK based HYP of individual shares. Could u possibly advise what ur 'non UK' IT portfolio currently consists of and the current yields?

Cheers
Floyd


Matt mentions EAT, JEMI,JETI & MYI. I would add HFEL & JPS to the list ( the latter 2 feature in J Baron's income portfolio).

Hopefully the links will help towards research into possible funds.
EAT
https://www.hl.co.uk/shares/shares-sear ... st-gbp0.10
JEMI
https://www.hl.co.uk/shares/shares-sear ... tst-ord-1p
JETI
https://www.hl.co.uk/shares/shares-sear ... ome-shares
MYI
https://www.hl.co.uk/shares/shares-sear ... -25p-share
HFEL
https://www.hl.co.uk/shares/shares-sear ... td-ord-npv
JPS
https://www.hl.co.uk/shares/shares-sear ... st-ord-10p

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Re: Basket of Eight: 2019 review

#257008

Postby BrummieDave » October 10th, 2019, 7:59 pm

As posted several times on previous threads, I started with Luni's B7a basket but have also since diversified out by adding international and global ITs.

One that rarely gets a mention, but has done very well for me (and I was put on to it by a fellow Fool), is 'Securities Trust of Scotland' (STS). It's global rather than than international, so does include 12% UK equities and doesn't therefore fully meet Floyd or Matt's requirement, but it's been my star performer these past 18 months:

https://www.hl.co.uk/shares/shares-sear ... ord-red-1p

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Re: Basket of Eight: 2019 review

#257043

Postby thebarns » October 11th, 2019, 12:16 am

I also would like to increase the amount of international ITs in my portfolio - I have some but want to get more in.

However, I am aware that an element of their outperforming UK ITs to such an extent recently has been caused by the downward demise of the pound.

It could of course be said that the pound could head even further lower and boost the future return from these international ITs and that we cannot be sure what way it will head.

I know that some say the time to invest is now, but I think I will keep the powder dry for a while longer before I will further invest in non UK ITs or ETFs.

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Re: Basket of Eight: 2019 review

#257045

Postby Dod101 » October 11th, 2019, 12:59 am

BrummieDave wrote:As posted several times on previous threads, I started with Luni's B7a basket but have also since diversified out by adding international and global ITs.

One that rarely gets a mention, but has done very well for me (and I was put on to it by a fellow Fool), is 'Securities Trust of Scotland' (STS). It's global rather than than international, so does include 12% UK equities and doesn't therefore fully meet Floyd or Matt's requirement, but it's been my star performer these past 18 months:

https://www.hl.co.uk/shares/shares-sear ... ord-red-1p


I have lost sight of S T of S for some years . It was no good for a long time but it is good to hear that is performing again. ITs come and go and it is as well to choose and just stick with them. Scottish Investment Trust is another long time doing nothing trust and now it is doing fine. Alliance also having been reborn is doing OK but in fact it never was that bad despite the negative publicity.

Illustrations of the benefits of ITs.

Dod

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Re: Basket of Eight: 2019 review

#257072

Postby mattman74 » October 11th, 2019, 9:11 am

Hi Floyd

You asked about the % of overseas ITs in my portfolio and the yield.
The yield is my best guess for next year based on past increases (not trailing yield)
Life is a bit complicated at the moment as I am just about to draw down my SIPP so I am holding 17% cash for the tax free lump sum and the first years income. This means I sold out of JETI, JEMI and some EAT.

AAIF - 2.5% of portfolio with a yield of 4.3%
EAT - 1% of portfolio with a yield of 6.1%
HFEL - 3% of portfolio with a yield of 6.2% (sorry - I forgot about this in my post)
MYI - 3% of portfolio with a yield of 4.6%

I run an IT portfolio for my wife.

She holds in the oversea IT income space

JETI, JEMI about 4% each of her portfolio yielding about 4%
JPS. 2% of her portfolio yielding 4.3%
MYI 7% of her portfolio yielding 4.6%
SOI 6% of her portfolio yielding 4%
NAIT 6% of her portfolio yielding 3%

Needless to say they stuff I tell my wife to buy tends to do much better than my portfolio....
I strongly suspect this is due to my desire for income (i am retired) whereas my wife is working so I feel she can take a long term view. Also, getting her to act on something she is uninterested in is ... problematical. So in effect she is a long term buy & hold forever investor - no tinkering.

Matt

Dod101
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Re: Basket of Eight: 2019 review

#257078

Postby Dod101 » October 11th, 2019, 9:28 am

Posters who use EPICS only ought to provide the full name at least once as a courtesy to posters (like me anyway) who have to go and look them up.

Dod (Grumpy old man this morning)

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Re: Basket of Eight: 2019 review

#257088

Postby mattman74 » October 11th, 2019, 10:18 am

Many apologies Dod - I was typing on an ipad, it is a bit slow and I was acting on the request of another poster.
(so here goes please forgive me if I dont get the titles exactly correct)

AAIF. - Aberdeen Asian Income Fund
EAT - European Assets Trust
HFEL - Henderson Far East Income
MYI - Murray International Income
JEMI - JP Morgan Emerging Markets Income
JETI - JP Morgan European Income
JPS - JP Morgan Japanese smaller Companies
SOI - Schroder Oriental Income
NAIT - North American Income Trust

The investors chronicle is the the starting point for selection via their 100 best active funds list and John Baron's IT column.
The Association of Investment Companies website is also a wealth of information. (Just google "The AIC")

Matt


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