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My absence

Formerly "Lemon Fool - Improve the Recipe" repurposed as Room 102 (see above).
Itsallaguess
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Re: My absence

#310352

Postby Itsallaguess » May 20th, 2020, 5:48 pm

Gengulphus wrote:
That has stretched into a lot more times than I had intended, for a number of reasons - among them, being close to completing on buying a new house, the Christmas / New Year holiday season, working out how to adjust my life for our new COVID-19 dominated world, wanting to take another look at the site over a few weeks to see whether it had perhaps changed for the better (I'm sorry to say that IMHO, it hasn't), and the sheer difficulty of working out exactly what I wanted to say in this post and how I wanted to say it. By the way, I can reassure people that nothing significantly bad has happened to me personally.


It's great that you've popped in to say hello Gengulphus, and to hear that you're well.

You should know that you're sadly missed by many of us here.

All the best.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

MrFoolish
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Re: My absence

#310355

Postby MrFoolish » May 20th, 2020, 5:56 pm

Arborbridge wrote:You don't know exactly what he means, but that doesn't give anyone permission to use it to make forays into areas which he almost certainly does not mean!
And there is "a certain degree of flexibility" and always has been - but it is only a "certain degree" - it isn't for individuals to push the boundaries ever further until we end up with something which is most certain not HYP.
Arb.


I agree with you. But it's not as if the "offenders" were discussing adding in emerging markets zero yielding shares. Often people mention adding in an Investment Trust (for example) for a bit of additional international diversification - and the post gets chopped. What a waste of the poster's time.

But Luni used to post at great length about pure Investment Trust HYPs and the posts never disappeared. Why the inconsistency?

PhaseThree

Re: My absence

#310357

Postby PhaseThree » May 20th, 2020, 5:59 pm

I was one of the members of TMF who was not happy when the HYP board split in 2008 (was it really 2008 !). My view at the time was that the pros and cons, implementation and practicalities of a HYPs should be aired and discussed in a single place. I was concerned that the plan was to push the meta-discussion into a backwater forum then ignore it. I remember having a robust exchange of views with members and admins at the time (note - different times, different username)

It turns out I was wrong.

Splitting the board into two made the practical HYP stronger and made it a lot easier to find the meta-discussions. We should seriously consider such a bifurcation on TLM. It costs little, had no real downside and if it keeps more members on TLF it should be encouraged.

GoSeigen
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Re: My absence

#310358

Postby GoSeigen » May 20th, 2020, 6:00 pm

MrFoolish wrote:But Luni used to post at great length about pure Investment Trust HYPs and the posts never disappeared. Why the inconsistency?


Because he posted it on the Strategies board NOT the HYP Practical board of course! Nothing inconsistent about it AFAICS.

Good to see Gengulphus visiting; I hope his stay will be an extended one.

GS

stooz
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Re: My absence

#310359

Postby stooz » May 20th, 2020, 6:07 pm

We in TLF towers are always open to discussion on the site and how it is best adapted to serve. However the HYP has been a constant thorn as there are opposing views in how it should be managed that leaves disappointment for some as there seems to be no one stop fix all solution.

We aimed having the practical discussions in one area, and the strategy discussions in another. What happens of course, is the strategy posters want the sage advise from the practical people so "interrupt" discussions so they get a response.


But I am always open to keep trying to improve to give a place for all.
I dont pretend to understand the investment style, but I know we had 2 areas for the pure - and the less so. I also understand your points where, when it comes down to it, some posters ignore the rules and carry on regardless.

As a team of moderators we also struggle to please all camps, but if there was a one stop all way of moderating the areas, again, opinion and input is always listened to hopefully a system that can please the majority, if not all, is always the aim.

I like to think that there aren't many discussion websites that are so open to feedback and quick to amend the site to try to cater for all tastes, so please be heartened to know - we are trying and listening always.

I can only offer from myself technical solutions, so I can offer a few ideas - again - it just seems what ever the outcome, we can't please everyone, so please consider that no matter what there will need to be some acceptance of tolerance.

ok, just crazy ideas here, and they are not approved by anyone, so take them as personal suggestions, not a board level agreement;

1) as per polite discussion - a more private room - with an owners group of like minded people (like yourself OP+mods). Someone who has a strict set of rules and all posts must comply. Publicly visible but ability to create/reply posts is done on an invite system.
You request to join, and if approved, you can join in. If you are in contention of the rules you can be at worst, rejected from posting pending request to rejoin
This can also (i think) have the option to put a member "on hold" pending all posts to be manually approved before appearing - as sort of sinbin, rather than a free for all.

2) an improved agreement to move any off topic posts to the strategy board

3) some sort of tagging system, so all topics are in one place, but you can "highlight" them as practical or strategy or otherwise
Image

4) something else? can you yourselves as posters here, pin down and agree on a way that suits everyone?

I know the mods understand the subject far better than myself, so I know I may draw criticism from not understanding the discussions and the way it's moderated, so please take this offer in the manner which it is intended; to keep listening and improving.

MrFoolish
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Re: My absence

#310364

Postby MrFoolish » May 20th, 2020, 6:22 pm

Would people be open to a poll to ask if Investment Trust(s) can be added as a minority component of a HYP?

If it's democratically decided upon, it would be hard to argue with.

Lootman
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Re: My absence

#310367

Postby Lootman » May 20th, 2020, 6:24 pm

stooz wrote:1) as per polite discussion - a more private room - with an owners group of like minded people (like yourself OP+mods). Someone who has a strict set of rules and all posts must comply. Publicly visible but ability to create/reply posts is done on an invite system.

You request to join, and if approved, you can join in. If you are in contention of the rules you can be at worst, rejected from posting pending request to rejoin.

This can also (i think) have the option to put a member "on hold" pending all posts to be manually approved before appearing - as sort of sinbin, rather than a free for all.

Two issues I see with that:

Firstly, having posts be pending prior to being published would surely cause more work for moderators, since they would have to read and review all posts rather than just the ones that are reported to them. It's also frustrating to put a lot of effort into a post and then see it just hanging there invisibly for however long.

Secondly, there have always been people who abandon HYP, but there was always a new supply of people who adopted it. This was clearer on TMF where HYP had a higher profile and it was promoted. If you make HYP a private-only board like PD then many new people may not be aware it exists, or else will not sign up for it. The danger then is that it becomes a dwindling band of devotees relegated to a side room.

That said you can probably see how making PD private affected either the popularity of that forum or the quality of the content?

Alaric
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Re: My absence

#310370

Postby Alaric » May 20th, 2020, 6:31 pm

stooz wrote:1) as per polite discussion - a more private room - with an owners group of like minded people (like yourself OP+mods). Someone who has a strict set of rules and all posts must comply. Publicly visible but ability to create/reply posts is done on an invite system.
You request to join, and if approved, you can join in. If you are in contention of the rules you can be at worst, rejected from posting pending request to rejoin
This can also (i think) have the option to put a member "on hold" pending all posts to be manually approved before appearing - as sort of sinbin, rather than a free for all..


I think that would be the best solution. It would save those who innocently suggest that parts of the HYP process can lead to selection of stinkers like Carillion from being savaged on HYP-P and having their posts deleted or moved. That would equally apply to those who might want to suggest Preference Shares, overseas shares or lower yielding but high growth shares.

idpickering
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Re: My absence

#310374

Postby idpickering » May 20th, 2020, 6:48 pm

Thanks for your input stooz. For me I’d like the board to be left as is, but better policed. To change things imho, just makes the matter more complicated. Keep It Simple.

Ian.

Arborbridge
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Re: My absence

#310375

Postby Arborbridge » May 20th, 2020, 6:48 pm

MrFoolish wrote:Would people be open to a poll to ask if Investment Trust(s) can be added as a minority component of a HYP?

If it's democratically decided upon, it would be hard to argue with.


It's not a club with democratic rules. Instead of accepting a HYP for what it is - within its broad limits - you want to set up a method of altering a HYP to be something which happens to suit you better.

Why? If you are not happy with a HYP, why not investing in the things you prefer and discuss them on the appropriate board? What is so difficult about that, or do you just enjoy mischiefemaking?

I know, why don't we have a vote about the colour black: if we all decide to call it white, it would be hard to argue with. Same idea pushed to its limit to show really how wrong your notion.

Arb.

stooz
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Re: My absence

#310379

Postby stooz » May 20th, 2020, 6:56 pm

Thats not very constructive Arborbridge. This is the heart of the problem. People want to discuss variations. and that's fine. Yes its not HYP, but its not as far fetched as saying white is black.
the discussion here is where are they best placed or moved to? to me its a sub forum maybe of none pure hyp?
ideally they all stay in the same place in my mind. and you can filter out those you dont have an interest in.

Arborbridge
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Re: My absence

#310382

Postby Arborbridge » May 20th, 2020, 7:00 pm

stooz wrote:
1) as per polite discussion - a more private room - with an owners group of like minded people (like yourself OP+mods). Someone who has a strict set of rules and all posts must comply. Publicly visible but ability to create/reply posts is done on an invite system.
You request to join, and if approved, you can join in. If you are in contention of the rules you can be at worst, rejected from posting pending request to rejoin
This can also (i think) have the option to put a member "on hold" pending all posts to be manually approved before appearing - as sort of sinbin, rather than a free for all.

2) an improved agreement to move any off topic posts to the strategy board




1) I object to a private room because this cannot readily attract new people, which is surely what we need. This suggestion only plays into the hands of those who do not approve of HYP-P and would like to see it undermined.
Why wouldn't a public room be able to have a strict set of rules in the same way? It does not have to be private to achieve this, achieved by...

2) above.

The HYP-P board was always one of the most popular boards on TMF and TLF, and deserves to be public. There has been in the past year or so, a campaign of sniping and trolling which has undermined the atmosphere. In my view it isn't simply strategy investors interrupting because they want advice. The disruptors know perfectly well what the guidelines are and choose to ignore them or constantly ask why it is so -even though they've been around long enough to know the answers. The solution to this lies in tighter moderation.

Arb.

uspaul666
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Re: My absence

#310383

Postby uspaul666 » May 20th, 2020, 7:03 pm

Until it’s understood *why* people submit posts and replies that are outside the rules, it’s surely not going to be possible to fix it.

Lootman
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Re: My absence

#310384

Postby Lootman » May 20th, 2020, 7:16 pm

uspaul666 wrote:Until it’s understood *why* people submit posts and replies that are outside the rules, it’s surely not going to be possible to fix it.

Excellent point. To truly understand why HYP attracts a level of disruption that no other investment modality here does is important. It is inadequate to merely dismiss any and all criticism as (to quote Arb) "a campaign of sniping and trolling". There is no conspiracy here. But the question remains: Why does HYP and nothing else attract this? Why does a dual board structure exist to protect just one class of people and no other?

And until those questions are answered, no tinkering will fix this. There were arguments about HYP twenty years ago on TMF (I was there; I remember) . There were fights there both before and after the board split in 2008. There were HYP fights before and after the migration to TLF.

I am not going to attempt to answer the question as to why HYP structurally attracts dissent. Partly because I do not want to rain on the OP's heartfelt lament. And partly because I do not want this topic to degrade into the very thing it was criticising. But I think that someone should understand this if real change is to happen.

Dod101
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Re: My absence

#310386

Postby Dod101 » May 20th, 2020, 7:21 pm

The real answer is to abolish HYP as a concept altogether and simply have a High Yield Board or if you must a High Yield Strategies Board and a High Yield Practical Board but I am not sure I would know the difference. That would allow the discussion to include high yield ITs and Prefs if wanted. I have always thought that it was very artificial to try to maintain a so called 'pure' HYP and if any other form of high yield portfolio banish it to Strategies. After all a 'pure' HYOP is but one strategy

I am completely against the idea of having it as a semi private Board like PD. That makes it sound like porn or something.

Navel gazing is not my thing.

Dod

PhaseThree

Re: My absence

#310394

Postby PhaseThree » May 20th, 2020, 7:57 pm

I would not support a walled garden approach (1. Above). PD is a great example of what happens - it pushes the extreme views into a box which everyone else can happily ignore. This may be acceptable for political discussions but would be a step too far (imho) for fiscal discussions on a fiscal discussion forum. Taken to its illogical conclusion we would each have our own forum in which no-one would challenge our views.

The problem with (3) is that threads diverge and get less specific. Trying to classify a thread as "us" or "non-us" will be problematic.

I think a rigorously enforced version of (2) above would be the preferable solution. Arguably it worked well on TMF

kiloran
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Re: My absence

#310398

Postby kiloran » May 20th, 2020, 8:15 pm

Great to see Gengulphus back. I loved his long, well-considered posts, though I'll admit I didn't always have the stamina to read right to the end of all of them :oops:

I don't think there is an easy solution. Controlling the use of social media must be like herding cats, and I sympathise with the problems our unpaid, part-time mods face. It's all very well (and desirable) to have board guidelines, but who really reads them? Let's face it, we all buy new toys and play with them before reading the manual. I found the same in my working life..... you can train people in processes and specifications to the Nth degree, but let them loose and the training just goes out the window, sometimes due to inattentiveness and sometimes just maliciousness or mischievousness.

The only solution is to take a laid-back approach and exhibit a high degree of tolerance, accepting that one mod may make a different judgement to another mod, and that sometimes frustration may prompt us to let off a little steam.
Defining more or different rules, splitting boards or making them less public just won't have any noticeable effect in this social media environment.

--kiloran
(afterthought.... it would be good to give mods the authority to beat some posters about the head sometimes :lol: )

Mike88
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Re: My absence

#310399

Postby Mike88 » May 20th, 2020, 8:18 pm

While Gelgulphus is unhappy about posters on HYP he could always post on the other boards to which he usefully contributed on MF. He has helped me in the past and he is missed.

G3lc
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Re: My absence

#310400

Postby G3lc » May 20th, 2020, 8:19 pm

So what is the exact purpose of the board, if all the rules are followed to the letter we would all have the same thing, so the only thing to talk about would be to guess what may happen in he future, or would that be against the rules?

baldchap
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Re: My absence

#310403

Postby baldchap » May 20th, 2020, 8:23 pm

MrFoolish wrote:Would people be open to a poll to ask if Investment Trust(s) can be added as a minority component of a HYP?

If it's democratically decided upon, it would be hard to argue with.


As someone who moved away from the traditional HYP into ITs, I would still disagree.
Let the those who follow a purely traditional HYP have the practical board. Why go there?, they don't need saving or converting.

Likewise, there are individuals who regularly visit the strategies board, with the intention of picking holes and disrupting, as they seem to have taken umbrage at those who have strayed from the traditional path. So my advice to them would be to stick to the practical board.

Finally, comments like this aren't really helpful. We are all on the same journey regardless of the vehicle.
A breath of fresh air from a genuine HYPer.


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