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Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

The home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
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This is the home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
Lootman
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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#359318

Postby Lootman » November 23rd, 2020, 3:39 pm

redsturgeon wrote:US not receiving AZ vaccine news well.

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/ ... mbellished

One thing I anticipate is that people may carry a certificate that proves that they have been vaccinated. Such proof might be needed to enter various facilities and locations, rather like proof of a negative test result is required here and there.

If so, and the US does not approve the AZ vaccine, then Brits who have had the AZ vaccine might find themselves with a problem if they visit the US. Which in turn would make it a less desirable vaccine to have.

I hope we are offered a choice of vaccines but have no idea if we will be, given the monolithic nature of the NHS. Which would just leave private sources if you are picky about which one to have.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#359321

Postby redsturgeon » November 23rd, 2020, 3:42 pm

Lootman wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:US not receiving AZ vaccine news well.

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/ ... mbellished

One thing I anticipate is that people may carry a certificate that proves that they have been vaccinated. Such proof might be needed to enter various facilities and locations, rather like proof of a negative test result is required here and there.

If so, and the US does not approve the AZ vaccine, then Brits who have had the AZ vaccine might find themselves with a problem if they visit the US. Which in turn would make it a less desirable vaccine to have.

I hope we are offered a choice of vaccines but have no idea if we will be, given the monolithic nature of the NHS. Which would just leave private sources if you are picky about which one to have.


I can't remember the exact figures but the NHS has bought far more AZ vaccine than any other.

John

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#359325

Postby Bouleversee » November 23rd, 2020, 3:47 pm

They'd probably find them quite easy to sell to hot countries.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#359351

Postby Bouleversee » November 23rd, 2020, 4:52 pm

Interesting article in Medical News Today:

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articl ... 9-pandemic

You've got to hand it to them; seem rather more on the ball than our lot.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#359355

Postby Bouleversee » November 23rd, 2020, 4:57 pm


tjh290633
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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#359358

Postby tjh290633 » November 23rd, 2020, 5:06 pm

The impression that I get is that Lockdown has no or minimal effect on the spread of the virus. The Birmingham results quoted above seem to confirm that.

Logically social distancing, handwashing and wearing facemasks indoors in public places would seem to be all that is required.

Some other mechanism is causing the virus to spread, which has not yet been identified. Maybe it is associated with a small group of people, maybe with personal vulnerability, maybe with wind direction, who knows?

The data suggests that the spread was decreasing in some areas before lockdown was imposed. Perhaps we need a control sample of places without lockdown to determine the source.

TJH

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#359363

Postby johnhemming » November 23rd, 2020, 5:12 pm

tjh290633 wrote:Perhaps we need a control sample of places without lockdown to determine the source.

This would have been a good idea, but is too scientific for Sage.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#359371

Postby zico » November 23rd, 2020, 5:28 pm

redsturgeon wrote:US not receiving AZ vaccine news well.

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/ ... mbellished

John


I've tried delving into the figures on this using the attached data from AstraZeneca press release.
https://www.astrazeneca.com/media-centr ... 22hlr.html

They are saying that in the entire trial (vaccine + placebo) there were 132 Covid infections, and are claiming the vaccine is 70% effective.
For simplicity, I've assumed they mean that 70% of infections are in the placebo group (92 infections) which leaves 30% (40 infections) in the vaccine group. (There's another interpretation of the "70% efficacy" figure, but it just means the infected number in the "90% group" are even lower)

They then break down their vaccine results into 2 groups
Group A (Two full-strength jabs 1 month apart) - 8,895 vaccines with a 62% effectiveness
Group B (A half-strength jab, then a full-strength jab) - 2,741 vaccine with a 90% effectiveness. (This is the widely-quoted 90% efficacy figure)

So Group A is 3 times the size of Group B. If they were both equally effective, Group A would have had 30 infections, and Group B 10 infections.
Based on the 90% effectiveness figure, I calculate Group B has had 3 infections. This is a VERY small number on which to make a claim that Group B treatment is 90% effective. (Probably fair though to say that Group B is better than Group A and with a larger trial, Group B efficacy would be expected to be at least 70%, and possibly as high as 90%)
Another problem with Group B is that they don't have any scientific logic as to why that regime would work more effectively, though there must be some reason why they switched to it.

N.B. The other way of calculating the efficacy figure is as follows.
Assume the vaccine would be a complete failure, results would be random, and 50% of all infection would be from the vaccine group (so 61 cases)
Assume "50% efficacy" means that the numbers of positive infections are reduced by 50% (so 30 cases)
Then "70% efficacy" means 70% reduction, which would be 24 cases.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#359377

Postby redsturgeon » November 23rd, 2020, 5:48 pm

johnhemming wrote:
tjh290633 wrote:Perhaps we need a control sample of places without lockdown to determine the source.

This would have been a good idea, but is too scientific for Sage.


Maybe we are not really under lockdown at all.

Schools open, colleges open, workplaces open, supermarkets open, the road seem just as busy as before lockdown (I walk over the M3 every day on my dog walk, it is not quiet, unlike the first lockdown. The centre of our city is also quite busy with people on the streets...not sure what they are doing but there are few food shops in the centre.

John

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#359380

Postby zico » November 23rd, 2020, 6:09 pm

I'm genuinely interested in trying to understand the anti-lockdown rationale, because I simply can't see how the arguments stack up.
There seem to be a few possible rationales.

1. There's a trade-off between health and the economy. We have to choose between saving lives and saving the economy. (A sub-set of this is that there's a trade-off in different types of deaths, so lockdown may save Covid deaths, but this will be outweighed by causing even more non-Covid deaths).
2. Lockdowns simply do not work.
3. Lockdowns are an unreasonable curtailment of civil liberties, and this is true regardless of the number of extra deaths from Covid.

1. Trade-off between health and economy.
Data simply doesn't seem to back this option up at all, because countries that have effectively and firmly tackled Covid have suffered less economic damage. China prioritised cracking-down on Covid, and its economy is in a very good place. On the other hand, UK took longer than most nations to enter lockdown, and has one of the highest covid deaths per million and one of the biggest hits to its economy.

The attached link shows comparisons between how different countries have handled the pandemic, and the outcomes. (Second graph in the link shows the GDP v Deaths trade-off). I don't know how trusted the source is, but Eurostat figures are used.

https://ourworldindata.org/covid-health-economy

If squashing the virus also helps the economy, then the "trade-off" argument can't be maintained.

(There's an associated argument that cracking down on Covid deaths causes more cancer deaths, suicides and other forms of deaths. This argument states that hospitals should be more focused on treating non-Covid diseases. The big problem here is that if there's a Covid epidemic, the hospitals can't treat non-Covid diseases, because they'll be full of Covid patients. Even if there is capacity, as in the first wave, cancer patients will be deterred from visiting hospitals because of the risk of catching Covid. The only way around this is to prevent Covid patients from entering hospitals, but then they will die at home, and the death rate will be 4/5 times if they are denied medical care)

2. Lockdowns simply do not work.
We know the virus is spread between humans, mainly through breathing, but also can be picked up from contaiminated surfaces.
For this, I'm defining "lockdowns" as any type of restriction of normal economic activity".

We have a lot of evidence about lockdowns. China used extremely strong lockdowns in Wuhan. That worked.
UK delayed lockdown compared to other countries. We had far more infections and subsequent deaths than other similar countries. The first lockdown co-incided with an eventual large drop in infections. We moved to "mild lockdowns" where government encouraged mask-wearing, opened pubs, restaurant, schools and other retail. Then there was a sharp increase in new infections. Areas like Liverpool which moved sooner to stronger restrictions have seen a decrease in new infections, while over the same period, regions with lighter restrictions than Liverpool have seen cases continue to grow.

So scientifically, lockdowns should work because they restrict opportunities for the virus to spread, and empirically, the evidence shows they do work.I can't see any evidence for saying that lockdowns don't work.

3. Lockdowns are an unreasonable curtailment of civil liberties, and this is true regardless of the number of extra deaths from Covid.

There's an inherent logic to this argument, as it depends on the relative value people put on life and risk/reward profiles. Because my subjective approach prioritises saving tens of thousands of lives above temporary restrictions on freedom, so although I appreciate other people's trade-offs are equally valid but different, I'm not sure what trade-off would be acceptable for people who hold the "civil liberties above all" view. If for example, we went back to "completely normal" as in all retail open, football and racing open to the public, face-masks and distancing purely optional, it's clear that in the next 2-3 months there would be somewhere in the region of 40,000-70,000 avoidable Covid deaths. (I'm using "avoidable" in the sense of comparing it against keeping restrictions for 2-3 months).

All being well, there a vaccine should be available for the most vulnerable groups by end-February (so 3 more months) which means that the NHS wouldn't necessarily get completely overwhelmed. There's an end in sight, so there is a reasonable discussion to be had about how many Covid deaths we as a nation are prepared to accept in exchange for fewer restrictions on our daily life. (Once the vaccine is widely available, the trade-off is far better). Please note I'm not saying anything derogatory about people who think that additional deaths are a small price to pay for our freedoms, as we already have lots of situations where we as a nation choose to accept deaths of other citizens in return for other benefits (e.g. car use).

Are there any other lockdown rationales that I've missed?

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#359386

Postby XFool » November 23rd, 2020, 6:25 pm

zico wrote:I'm genuinely interested in trying to understand the anti-lockdown rationale, because I simply can't see how the arguments stack up.
There seem to be a few possible rationales.

1. There's a trade-off between health and the economy. We have to choose between saving lives and saving the economy. (A sub-set of this is that there's a trade-off in different types of deaths, so lockdown may save Covid deaths, but this will be outweighed by causing even more non-Covid deaths).
2. Lockdowns simply do not work.
3. Lockdowns are an unreasonable curtailment of civil liberties, and this is true regardless of the number of extra deaths from Covid.
...
Are there any other lockdown rationales that I've missed?

Yes. If you value completeness:

4. There is no pandemic.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#359392

Postby zico » November 23rd, 2020, 6:34 pm

XFool wrote:
zico wrote:I'm genuinely interested in trying to understand the anti-lockdown rationale, because I simply can't see how the arguments stack up.
There seem to be a few possible rationales.

1. There's a trade-off between health and the economy. We have to choose between saving lives and saving the economy. (A sub-set of this is that there's a trade-off in different types of deaths, so lockdown may save Covid deaths, but this will be outweighed by causing even more non-Covid deaths).
2. Lockdowns simply do not work.
3. Lockdowns are an unreasonable curtailment of civil liberties, and this is true regardless of the number of extra deaths from Covid.
...
Are there any other lockdown rationales that I've missed?

Yes. If you value completeness:

4. There is no pandemic.


Thanks, but I don't think anyone on these boards seriously believes that! (Though I'm aware the "hoax" idea is prevalent is UK as well as in the US)

I'm aware there are a lot of intelligent and thoughtful people who are against lockdown, and I'm just trying to understand the rationale behind it.

One rationale that I didn't deal with (because I don't think it's really a rationale) is that people are just sick and tired of it all, wish it was all over, and just want to get back to normal. It's a natural human reaction, but I don't think it is evidence-based, and "just getting back to normal" would mean lots of avoidable deaths. I think it's particularly important right now that having endured 9 months of restrictions, we don't all suddenly go mad and party rather than waiting another 2-3 months (or whenever it is that this vaccine is delivered to high-risk groups). Once the high-risk groups are protected, the moral case for individuals doing whatever suits them becomes a lot stronger.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#359397

Postby johnhemming » November 23rd, 2020, 6:44 pm

To debate the question of what policy response is appropriate for Covid-19 you need to start with understanding the nature of the issue. This has certain key factual issues
a) What is the level of susceptibility
b) How many people have now been infected
c) What is the IFR and how can we reduce the number of deaths without causing further problems.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#359399

Postby XFool » November 23rd, 2020, 7:04 pm

zico wrote:
XFool wrote:
zico wrote:Are there any other lockdown rationales that I've missed?

Yes. If you value completeness:

4. There is no pandemic.

Thanks, but I don't think anyone on these boards seriously believes that! (Though I'm aware the "hoax" idea is prevalent is UK as well as in the US)

I'm aware there are a lot of intelligent and thoughtful people who are against lockdown, and I'm just trying to understand the rationale behind it.

It may not matter to your query but, I could have made my point more clearly. There are, IMO, two interpretations of my point 4.

4a. There is no pandemic - There never was, it's all a hoax.

4b. There is no pandemic - There was a pandemic, but it is over now.

I believe version 4b is adhered to by some of the people offering 'Alternative' explanations to the public. I do not specifically refer to anyone here.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#359405

Postby jfgw » November 23rd, 2020, 7:38 pm

zico wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:US not receiving AZ vaccine news well.

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/ ... mbellished

John


I've tried delving into the figures on this using the attached data from AstraZeneca press release.
https://www.astrazeneca.com/media-centr ... 22hlr.html

They are saying that in the entire trial (vaccine + placebo) there were 132 Covid infections, and are claiming the vaccine is 70% effective.
For simplicity, I've assumed they mean that 70% of infections are in the placebo group (92 infections) which leaves 30% (40 infections) in the vaccine group. (There's another interpretation of the "70% efficacy" figure, but it just means the infected number in the "90% group" are even lower)

They then break down their vaccine results into 2 groups
Group A (Two full-strength jabs 1 month apart) - 8,895 vaccines with a 62% effectiveness
Group B (A half-strength jab, then a full-strength jab) - 2,741 vaccine with a 90% effectiveness. (This is the widely-quoted 90% efficacy figure)

So Group A is 3 times the size of Group B. If they were both equally effective, Group A would have had 30 infections, and Group B 10 infections.
Based on the 90% effectiveness figure, I calculate Group B has had 3 infections. This is a VERY small number on which to make a claim that Group B treatment is 90% effective. (Probably fair though to say that Group B is better than Group A and with a larger trial, Group B efficacy would be expected to be at least 70%, and possibly as high as 90%)
Another problem with Group B is that they don't have any scientific logic as to why that regime would work more effectively, though there must be some reason why they switched to it.

N.B. The other way of calculating the efficacy figure is as follows.
Assume the vaccine would be a complete failure, results would be random, and 50% of all infection would be from the vaccine group (so 61 cases)
Assume "50% efficacy" means that the numbers of positive infections are reduced by 50% (so 30 cases)
Then "70% efficacy" means 70% reduction, which would be 24 cases.


That looks overcomplicated (and wrong).

How about:
x% of the control group became infected. It is assumed that the same percentage of the vaccinated group(s) would have become infected if it were not for the vaccine. The reduction in infections is the efficacy of the vaccine.

Example:
10% of the control group became infected.
2% of the vaccinated group became infected. It would have been 10% were it not for the vaccine.
The vaccine cut the number of infections by 80% of what it would have been, therefore, it was 80% effective.


Julian F. G. W.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#359409

Postby jfgw » November 23rd, 2020, 7:58 pm

johnhemming wrote:
jfgw wrote:I would have considered prevalence to include everyone infected at a particular time whether they had been infected that day or, say, three weeks previously. These would be all current infections, not just new ones, and each infected person would show up on many days' figures, not just one.

The government's "new cases" figures may not be perfect (and are not consistent over longer periods of time due to changes in testing) but I struggle to see how they are prevalence and not new cases.


I struggle to see how most of the government's "new cases" figures are not actually prevalence testing (without statistical sampling). Some will be cases because they are either hospital admissions or otherwise, but that's only really pillar 1 (and only part of that as the rest of pillar 1 is testing prevalence with health and care workers).


Can you explain what you mean by prevalence testing please?

I can see how the ONS testing is prevalence.

While the government testing per se might be (in part) prevalence, the fact that only the first positive test result is reported as a new case means that the published figures for new cases are just that - new cases.

I appreciate that there are other problems with this figure such as the effect of different numbers of tests.


Julian F. G. W.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#359420

Postby Bouleversee » November 23rd, 2020, 8:39 pm

This is what was on the Investor's Chronicle website which is what I had concluded was the probable explanation myself, though time will tell whether it is right, and the average is actually 76%:

"Phase three clinical trial results from the UK developers suggest that if one half dose is given followed by a further full dose, it could be effective in preventing 90 per cent of people from getting ill, while a separate study produced an efficacy rate of 62 per cent when one full dose is given followed by another full dose at least one month apart. That gives a combined rate of 70 per cent, with the results deemed “statistically significant” from a clinical perspective."

So why not just give everyone one and a half doses and get a 90% success rate for everyone, making the available vaccine go much further? Win, win! Why should that send the AZN s.p. down while the market generally takes off?

I think we need a much clearer explanation from those who produced the figures rather than speculating ourselves. I shall listen to the news at 10 and also the next episode of How to Vaccinate the World. Actually, I think there was one this morning which I haven't yet listened to.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#359479

Postby zico » November 23rd, 2020, 11:18 pm

zico wrote: that they don't have any scientific logic as to why the half-dose full-dose regime would work more effectively, though there must be some reason why they switched to it.


Mystery solved. According to the Telegraph, the plan was to give two full-doses separated by a month, but someone messed up so about 3,000 people only got half the planned dose, but they decided to give the second full-dose and see what happened.
If they hadn't made the mistake, we'd be looking at 62% efficacy for this vaccine, which would have been pretty poor. As it is, something around 90% may be possible (though it's on extremely low positive infections for that group)

There have been lots of mistakes in the pandemic, but at last, a mistake with a very positive result! The AstraZeneca vaccine is more likely to be used worldwide (it's cheap, easy to store and non-profit making) so an improvement in its effectiveness could save hundreds of thousands of lives.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#359480

Postby Lootman » November 23rd, 2020, 11:21 pm

zico wrote:
zico wrote: that they don't have any scientific logic as to why the half-dose full-dose regime would work more effectively, though there must be some reason why they switched to it.

Mystery solved. According to the Telegraph, the plan was to give two full-doses separated by a month, but someone messed up so about 3,000 people only got half the planned dose, but they decided to give the second full-dose and see what happened.
If they hadn't made the mistake, we'd be looking at 62% efficacy for this vaccine, which would have been pretty poor. As it is, something around 90% may be possible (though it's on extremely low positive infections for that group)

There have been lots of mistakes in the pandemic, but at last, a mistake with a very positive result! The AstraZeneca vaccine is more likely to be used worldwide (it's cheap, easy to store and non-profit making) so an improvement in its effectiveness could save hundreds of thousands of lives.

The idea that a smaller dose can be more effective sounds like it almost comes from homeopathy. On the face of it, it makes no sense. Would a quarter dose be even better?

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#359481

Postby tjh290633 » November 23rd, 2020, 11:24 pm

That Lorna, is a repetition of what is said in the RNS, https://www.investegate.co.uk/astrazene ... 00071391G/

One dosing regimen (n=2,741) showed vaccine efficacy of 90% when AZD1222 was given as a half dose, followed by a full dose at least one month apart, and another dosing regimen (n=8,895) showed 62% efficacy when given as two full doses at least one month apart. The combined analysis from both dosing regimens (n=11,636) resulted in an average efficacy of 70%. All results were statistically significant (p<=0.0001). More data will continue to accumulate and additional analysis will be conducted, refining the efficacy reading and establishing the duration of protection.


Quite why the 90% result was ignored by much of the media can only be construed as a wish to denigrate the Astrazeneca results.

TJH


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