Donate to Remove ads

Got a credit card? use our Credit Card & Finance Calculators

Thanks to gpadsa,Steffers0,lansdown,Wasron,jfgw, for Donating to support the site

Discussing Illegalities

Formerly "Lemon Fool - Improve the Recipe" repurposed as Room 102 (see above).
panamagold
Lemon Slice
Posts: 614
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 6:31 pm
Has thanked: 124 times
Been thanked: 178 times

Re: Discussing Illegalities

#74191

Postby panamagold » August 13th, 2017, 8:41 pm

melonfool wrote:It is a discussion board, but that doesn't mean you can just discuss anything you like does it? There are loads of things that cannot be discussed.

I've read and re read what I posted and nowhere am I able determine where it was I advocated being at liberty to 'just discuss anything you like'

melonfool wrote:Yes, there is a note in the rules "The decision of the Admins and Moderators is final."

Ah, now we are getting somewhere.
I can accept that rules is rules and if I don't like them, well tough breaks, accept them or sod off. However, what I can't accept is that the final decision of a moderator can not be up for discussion or appeal. Is that in the rules? I believe I am correct in thinking that even a sentence of the death penalty can be up for discussion and open to appeal

PinkDalek
Lemon Half
Posts: 6139
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 1:12 pm
Has thanked: 1589 times
Been thanked: 1801 times

Re: Discussing Illegalities

#74196

Postby PinkDalek » August 13th, 2017, 8:49 pm

panamagold wrote:However, what I can't accept is that the final decision of a moderator can not be up for discussion or appeal. Is that in the rules?


I think the answer to that one is usually along the lines of:

Find somewhere else which allows discussion and appeals against Moderation decisions.

I suppose one could always PM the Mod concerned but if that becomes the norm, I pity the volunteers.

Is that in the rules?


The decision of the Admins and Moderators is final. ;)

panamagold
Lemon Slice
Posts: 614
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 6:31 pm
Has thanked: 124 times
Been thanked: 178 times

Re: Discussing Illegalities

#74201

Postby panamagold » August 13th, 2017, 9:08 pm

PinkDalek wrote:I think the answer to that one is usually along the lines of:

Find somewhere else which allows discussion and appeals against Moderation decisions.


You're saying, therefore, that the moderators are untouchable irrespective of how unreasonable their decisions might appear to be. The words 'power' and 'abuse of' spring to mind.

melonfool
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2939
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:18 am
Has thanked: 1365 times
Been thanked: 793 times

Re: Discussing Illegalities

#74202

Postby melonfool » August 13th, 2017, 9:10 pm

panamagold wrote:
PinkDalek wrote:I think the answer to that one is usually along the lines of:

Find somewhere else which allows discussion and appeals against Moderation decisions.


You're saying, therefore, that the moderators are untouchable irrespective of how unreasonable their decisions might appear to be. The words 'power' and 'abuse of' spring to mind.


Really?? You might be taking this whole thing just a teensy bit too seriously if you think that.

Mel

uspaul666
2 Lemon pips
Posts: 233
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 6:35 am
Has thanked: 196 times
Been thanked: 112 times

Re: Discussing Illegalities

#74207

Postby uspaul666 » August 13th, 2017, 9:16 pm

Where is the incentive for the mods to test the law in this respect?

melonfool
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2939
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:18 am
Has thanked: 1365 times
Been thanked: 793 times

Re: Discussing Illegalities

#74212

Postby melonfool » August 13th, 2017, 9:30 pm

uspaul666 wrote:Where is the incentive for the mods to test the law in this respect?


What does that mean please?

Mel

(as far as I know, there are no incentives for mods, only disincentives!)

panamagold
Lemon Slice
Posts: 614
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 6:31 pm
Has thanked: 124 times
Been thanked: 178 times

Re: Discussing Illegalities

#74213

Postby panamagold » August 13th, 2017, 9:32 pm

melonfool wrote:Really?? You might be taking this whole thing just a teensy bit too seriously if you think that.
Mel


You reckon? You might be being just a teensy weensy bit naive. You hold a position of power. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that someone in your position might just abuse that trusted and responsible position. It has been known to happen.

melonfool
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2939
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:18 am
Has thanked: 1365 times
Been thanked: 793 times

Re: Discussing Illegalities

#74217

Postby melonfool » August 13th, 2017, 9:40 pm

panamagold wrote:
melonfool wrote:Really?? You might be taking this whole thing just a teensy bit too seriously if you think that.
Mel


You reckon? You might be being just a teensy weensy bit naive. You hold a position of power. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that someone in your position might just abuse that trusted and responsible position. It has been known to happen.


Like, what, deleting some posts or something? On a forum where *nothing actually matters*?

You know that all we have is a delete (and modification) ability?

I'm sorry you think I am naive, I can assure you I am anything but in fact. Though I am a realist and I can tell the difference between things that matter and things that don't. It's not like we have access to your bank account, or to government secrets or anything. Or as if any of us act in isolation - we don't. This has been explained before - we often ask each other about decisions and we can all see the log and what has been reported, who has acted on it and what they have done (I suppose there is an exception when a mod acts without a report, but this is fairly rare and if it kept happening no doubt someone would use the report button to raise it with the admin team). Also, Stooz has always made it clear that he can be contacted by PM - or are you saying he also might abuse his position? His position of having started a whole board and community and trying to run it the way he would like?

You seem to be a bit resentful of the moderators.

Mel

redsturgeon
Lemon Half
Posts: 8982
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:06 am
Has thanked: 1330 times
Been thanked: 3712 times

Re: Discussing Illegalities

#74218

Postby redsturgeon » August 13th, 2017, 9:43 pm

panamagold wrote:
melonfool wrote:Really?? You might be taking this whole thing just a teensy bit too seriously if you think that.
Mel


You reckon? You might be being just a teensy weensy bit naive. You hold a position of power. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that someone in your position might just abuse that trusted and responsible position. It has been known to happen.


There are a team of moderators here who are all known and identifiable. We make decisions based on our interpretation of the rules. That is not always straightforward and if there are any grey areas then we will discuss decisions among ourselves and with stooz and Clariman. At the end of the day we are here to do their bidding, it is their site.

If any moderator starting acting in a way that suggested an abuse of power then it could quickly be brought to the attention of the wider moderator/admin group by the aggrieved party. Such behaviour would be quickly stopped if it was counter-productive to the smooth running of this site or demonstrated any breach of the rules or abuse of power.

John

panamagold
Lemon Slice
Posts: 614
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 6:31 pm
Has thanked: 124 times
Been thanked: 178 times

Re: Discussing Illegalities

#74221

Postby panamagold » August 13th, 2017, 10:04 pm

Without moderators a site could (technically) exist. Without members, posters and visitors a sites' very existance would be questionable.

Which brings me back to my original query as to why it is unreasonable or even against site rules that we, the members, should be prohibited from openely discussing a moderators decision?

PinkDalek
Lemon Half
Posts: 6139
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 1:12 pm
Has thanked: 1589 times
Been thanked: 1801 times

Re: Discussing Illegalities

#74230

Postby PinkDalek » August 13th, 2017, 10:46 pm

panamagold wrote:
PinkDalek wrote:I think the answer to that one is usually along the lines of:

Find somewhere else which allows discussion and appeals against Moderation decisions.


You're saying, therefore, that the moderators are untouchable irrespective of how unreasonable their decisions might appear to be. The words 'power' and 'abuse of' spring to mind.


When you include what you said (my bold):

However, what I can't accept is that the final decision of a moderator can not be up for discussion or appeal. Is that in the rules?

You'll see the part to which I was replying and was reminding you of what might be said in reply.

I wasn't saying what I consider right or wrong, untouchable or not. That was your interpretation of what you thought I'd said.

Anyway, I know you like your music but this is becoming Déjà Vu (all over again).

It is as if we are in a Time Warp.

csearle
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4847
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 2:24 pm
Has thanked: 4872 times
Been thanked: 2130 times

Re: Discussing Illegalities

#74231

Postby csearle » August 13th, 2017, 10:56 pm

panamagold wrote:Without moderators a site could (technically) exist. Without members, posters and visitors a sites' very existance would be questionable.

Which brings me back to my original query as to why it is unreasonable or even against site rules that we, the members, should be prohibited from openely discussing a moderators decision?
We are not the bad guys! We are volunteers trying to prevent this site degenerating into something unpleasant. We are all just individuals doing our best. Of course specific decisions could conceivably be contentious, or even undesirable, but I can assure you that none of us are trying for that. We are trying to make this the great place to be that The Motley Fool discussion boards were. If you really, really feel very strongly about the way a particular act of moderation went then please send a private message to our stooz, who will react as he sees fit.

But please believe me when I say that we are just trying to make things good here.

Regards,
Chris

Gengulphus
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4255
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 1:17 am
Been thanked: 2628 times

Re: Discussing Illegalities

#74239

Postby Gengulphus » August 13th, 2017, 11:37 pm

redsturgeon wrote:If any moderator starting acting in a way that suggested an abuse of power then it could quickly be brought to the attention of the wider moderator/admin group by the aggrieved party. Such behaviour would be quickly stopped if it was counter-productive to the smooth running of this site or demonstrated any breach of the rules or abuse of power.

And in that case, the decision of the moderator concerned would have been appealed against (it's still that even if you choose to instead call it "brought to the attention of the wider moderator/admin group") and would not have been final...

Which is compatible with "The decision of the Admins and Moderators is final" as long as one understands that that refers to the collective decision of the wider moderator/admin group and not to the original moderation decision. But that implies that "The decision of the Admins and Moderators is final" does not mean that moderation decisions cannot be appealed against. Or (and I hope not) that you're wrong about how an abuse of power would be handled.

Gengulphus

Lootman
The full Lemon
Posts: 19068
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 3:58 pm
Has thanked: 645 times
Been thanked: 6754 times

Re: Discussing Illegalities

#74242

Postby Lootman » August 14th, 2017, 12:00 am

melonfool wrote: people have to accept they may be moderated for it and not start new threads about it.

Wait, Is this another rule we don't know about? That if someone offers advice that is incorrect, it is removed?

And who decides which advice is wrong? You?

These "rules" that nobody here knows about appear to be propagating.

And, by the way, you mentioned in your previous post that giving feedback on moderation decisions is also not allowed? How will your performance as a moderator improve if nobody can point it out when you make a mistake? Where is the rule that says we cannot discuss it when you make a mistake?
Last edited by Lootman on August 14th, 2017, 12:13 am, edited 2 times in total.

Lootman
The full Lemon
Posts: 19068
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 3:58 pm
Has thanked: 645 times
Been thanked: 6754 times

Re: Discussing Illegalities

#74245

Postby Lootman » August 14th, 2017, 12:11 am

Gengulphus wrote: that implies that "The decision of the Admins and Moderators is final" does not mean that moderation decisions cannot be appealed against. Or (and I hope not) that you're wrong about how an abuse of power would be handled.

Agreed, I think the recent tangent here is based on a misunderstanding. It's entirely possible for a "moderator's decision to be final" but still allow a subsequent discussion about that decision.

And in fact this topic is living proof of that. I didn't appeal Clariman's decision to block the thread. In fact I thought that was fine as it had gone on long enough and nothing really new was coming out. But in his comment some underlying assumptions were made which conflicted with my sense of what is and is not allowed hence, hence this topic.

So, yes, Mel can have a definitive act of moderation if she wants. But she cannot declare herself immune from criticism for it, constructively crafted, of course. TMF had a specific place for doing that. In TLF that place is this board, unless there is somewhere else I don't know about.

I did not volunteer to be a moderator but, if I were one, I'd want to know when I messed up. Indeed, how else could I learn?

panamagold
Lemon Slice
Posts: 614
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 6:31 pm
Has thanked: 124 times
Been thanked: 178 times

Re: Discussing Illegalities

#74272

Postby panamagold » August 14th, 2017, 8:20 am

Lootman wrote:
melonfool wrote: people have to accept they may be moderated for it and not start new threads about it.

Wait, Is this another rule we don't know about? That if someone offers advice that is incorrect, it is removed?

And who decides which advice is wrong? You?


Exactly. It was the highlighted qouted text that stirred me to throw my opinions into the mix.


Lootman wrote:Anyway, I know you like your music but this is becoming Déjà Vu (all over again).

It is as if we are in a Time Warp.


What are you suggesting? I should set the thread to music? An 'azione teatrale opera' perhaps or would a 'burlettina' be more appropriate?

Clariman
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3271
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 12:17 am
Has thanked: 3087 times
Been thanked: 1559 times

Re: Discussing Illegalities

#74381

Postby Clariman » August 14th, 2017, 5:01 pm

Thank you all for your comments and contributions. I am not going to answer every question on this thread, but will endeavour to answer some that come to mind.

Firstly, I would like to thank all the moderators for their voluntary efforts to moderate these boards, because I think they are doing a grand job - for which we should all be grateful. I certainly am.

Secondly, I would like to thank the vast majority of posters who contribute interesting discussions and offer valuable commentary and information for the benefit of others. As someone pointed out, without posters there is no website. However, Stooz and I had neither sought to create a website for our own ends nor done so to make a profit. Our objective was to keep a community together and to do so in a way that was positive, welcoming, polite, friendly and useful .... and, yes, to act with integrity.

Thirdly, there have been various questions and conjecture about rules: secret rules, new rules, made-up-on-the-fly rules etc. The rules are pretty well defined, but the website has nearly 3000 users, has had about 72,000 posts - and it is still a young website. So it is completely unsurprising (to me) that we sometimes get faced with issues which we had not foreseen, so the rules will be refined, added to or changed.

While there are defined rules, do not expect them to be 100% pinned down in excruciating detail, because that would be time-consuming and rather pointless. Indeed, I received a very useful and interesting bit of advice from the team at TMF - which some of you will not like. I paraphrase it below ...
You need to have a set of rules but be very careful not to make them too detailed and unambiguous because there are posters out there who will exploit them to the letter - and cause a great feal of trouble. It is far better to have a broad set of rules and leave yourself some wriggle room for things which you knoware wrong but it would be hard to spell out in rules

That said, I haven't set out the rules to be ambiguous but I have no intention of creating pages and pages of them to take account of every possibility - and to hoisted by my own petard as the rules back Stooz and me into a corner.

So you will have to live with that. Stooz and I are both reasonable people and want this to be a tolerant (within reason), polite and an interesting place to be. And 99.9% of the time that is exactly what it is. But it also means - as others have said - that we have the ultimate right to set the moderation guidelines as we see fit.

That brings me on to the question "There's no rule to say we cannot question the moderators". Well there isn't but they do clearly state:
Posts may be deleted without warning or explanation (we will endeavour to explain but this may not always be possible). The decision of the Admins and Moderators is final.

Way back I wrote some Moderation Guidelines which advised the moderators not to get drawn into detailed justification of their actions. I think all mods are happy to explain reasons for their action but do not want to get drawn into long debates. The Mods and Admins decisions are final.

A few final comments about Legality and Integrity. As individuals (not a Limited Company), Stooz and I are not going to risk the site being sued or investigated for copyright infringement, defamation or any accusations of allowing illegal activities to be positively discussed. So we will take a low/no risk approach whether you like it or not.

In terms of integrity, that is something that is very important to me personally. I understand that Integrity is a subjective thing but I know what standards we wish to see here - and I think there is a common understanding amongst the moderators of what that is - even though it may be hard to write down in the form of rules.

Don't forget that the site has been funded by Ads. The site has been threatened with losing ads a few times because of some of the things written on this site by users. This is most likely the Polite Debates board but not solely. If there is no income, there is no Lemonfool.

Perhaps this is also an opportunity to thank the <1% of registered users who have kindly made a voluntary donation to the running of the site. Stooz and I are very grateful for your support.

So thanks once again for your contributions and discussion. It has been an interesting read. I'll leave the topic open for a bit, but do not expect any further contribution from me.

Thanks
Clariman

uspaul666
2 Lemon pips
Posts: 233
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 6:35 am
Has thanked: 196 times
Been thanked: 112 times

Re: Discussing Illegalities

#75618

Postby uspaul666 » August 19th, 2017, 6:51 am

melonfool wrote:
uspaul666 wrote:Where is the incentive for the mods to test the law in this respect?


What does that mean please?

Mel

(as far as I know, there are no incentives for mods, only disincentives!)

My comment was intended to be supportive of the mods. I was trying to hilight the fact that mods are unpaid, work hard, expose themselves to personal litigation if/when they don't remove "bad" posts when asked or when not and still everyone thinks they have the god given right to have a pop at them whenever they like or feel picked on. Of all volunteer "jobs", moderating a forum is the one most quick to remind the volunteer that it shouldn't be done in the expectation of being thanked.

csearle
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4847
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 2:24 pm
Has thanked: 4872 times
Been thanked: 2130 times

Re: Discussing Illegalities

#75619

Postby csearle » August 19th, 2017, 7:09 am

uspaul666 wrote:Of all volunteer "jobs", moderating a forum is the one most quick to remind the volunteer that it shouldn't be done in the expectation of being thanked.
Clearly you have not had the job of refereeing a local league volleyball match between two teams of testosterone-filled men! :D

Raptor
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1621
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 1:39 pm
Has thanked: 139 times
Been thanked: 306 times

Re: Discussing Illegalities

#75677

Postby Raptor » August 19th, 2017, 1:38 pm

csearle wrote:
uspaul666 wrote:Of all volunteer "jobs", moderating a forum is the one most quick to remind the volunteer that it shouldn't be done in the expectation of being thanked.
Clearly you have not had the job of refereeing a local league volleyball match between two teams of testosterone-filled men! :D


I am currently "befriending" with Alzheimers as well as back modding here and to be honest the "befriending" is less stressful and time comsuming and easier to manage with very specific set rules. I do not mod here to get any thanks but initially to help out 2 people I have looked up to and respected for many years (back in the stooz credit card days). My own views may not match other peoples and I may not know or understand all the legalities going on, but I do my best and am open to learn and change (oh and to put my hand up if I have got it wrong, as the Dalek said getting off the dustbin :D ).

Raptor.


Return to “Room 102 - Site Issues, Complaints & General Chat”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests