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Brexit: parts of UK manufacturing 'at risk of extinction', CBI says

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Charlottesquare
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Re: Brexit: parts of UK manufacturing 'at risk of extinction', CBI says

#145693

Postby Charlottesquare » June 14th, 2018, 10:29 pm

Nimrod103 wrote:
Charlottesquare wrote:
beeswax wrote:
It was certainly NOT victory for 'Europe' in 1945, because without the British and American forces, there would not have been a victory in Europe.



Depends if you consider Russia and the Soviet union Europe, not sure the Americans and ourselves (with the Commonwealth and Empire) would have fared that well on D Day if the Soviets had not been tying down a large portion of the Axis troops.


Without our material assistance, provided via the Arctic convoys, the Soviet Union would not have been able to wage war against the Germans. In fact given the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact of 1939, the Soviet contribution to causing WW2 is quite clear. It is also sobering to think how little the Nazi occupied countries actually did to gain their own freedom, being dependent on US/UK/Soviet invasion. Even the French Resistance were not much help to us (according to Lindybeige).


US support transported by the UK is more precise re the Arctic Convoys. And frankly Stalin did not really have much choice re the 1939 pact given the state of readiness for war of the Soviet Union at that time, it was quite unprepared for war in 1939 and frankly only slightly better prepared in 1941.

Also circa 50% of all goods appear to have gone to the Soviet Union on the Pacific route on Soviet ships, circa 23% of the aid supplied was via the Arctic route per wiki.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_co ... ar_II#1941

Lindybeige is hardly a historian, albeit I have not watched his broadcasts,whilst I am sure allied supplies made a significant impact I somewhat suspect Stalin's shifting factories east was more significant. Certainly by number count of casualties I would be hard pressed to argue WW2 as a UK/USA victory.

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Re: Brexit: parts of UK manufacturing 'at risk of extinction', CBI says

#145699

Postby Nimrod103 » June 14th, 2018, 11:07 pm

Charlottesquare wrote: Certainly by number count of casualties I would be hard pressed to argue WW2 as a UK/USA victory.


I don't think the number of casualties really counts for much in the greater scheme of things. But I didn't deny that it was a UK/US/Soviet victory. What it wasn't, was a European victory.
The occupied countries have little to be proud of, even the Channel Islands was a model of cooperation, if not collaboration. There was no fighting on the beaches there.

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Re: Brexit: parts of UK manufacturing 'at risk of extinction', CBI says

#145703

Postby ap8889 » June 14th, 2018, 11:44 pm

And in other news, if we dont leave a great many people will conclude UK democracy is at risk of extinction.

Suck a lemon, CBI: Democracy trumps your lobbying.

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Re: Brexit: parts of UK manufacturing 'at risk of extinction', CBI says

#145711

Postby Charlottesquare » June 15th, 2018, 12:31 am

Nimrod103 wrote:
Charlottesquare wrote: Certainly by number count of casualties I would be hard pressed to argue WW2 as a UK/USA victory.


I don't think the number of casualties really counts for much in the greater scheme of things.


Tell that to the Russians.

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Re: Brexit: parts of UK manufacturing 'at risk of extinction', CBI says

#145715

Postby ap8889 » June 15th, 2018, 12:56 am

Stonge wrote:It has become obvious that extremist Brexiteer sentiment, as expressed so often on here, does not reflect the views of the people (leavers or remainers) - indeed such sentiment is now being revealed as not caring whether the ordinary fellow citizen suffers significant hardship and poverty as long as we 'take back control' and stick it to the EU. A weird and callous attitude attitude that often seems to be based on still fighting WW2, which actually ended in victory for the whole of Europe in 1945.

I personally view such hideous, extremist, Brexiteer sentiment as treasonous.


Hard Brexit is the only Brexit.

I think you need to look up the laws on treason, because, newsflash here, Tony Blair had them watered down big-time. Draw your own conclusions. Just don't go about violating the King's eldest unmarried daughter.

ursaminortaur
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Re: Brexit: parts of UK manufacturing 'at risk of extinction', CBI says

#145716

Postby ursaminortaur » June 15th, 2018, 1:09 am

Charlottesquare wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:
Charlottesquare wrote:
Depends if you consider Russia and the Soviet union Europe, not sure the Americans and ourselves (with the Commonwealth and Empire) would have fared that well on D Day if the Soviets had not been tying down a large portion of the Axis troops.


Without our material assistance, provided via the Arctic convoys, the Soviet Union would not have been able to wage war against the Germans. In fact given the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact of 1939, the Soviet contribution to causing WW2 is quite clear. It is also sobering to think how little the Nazi occupied countries actually did to gain their own freedom, being dependent on US/UK/Soviet invasion. Even the French Resistance were not much help to us (according to Lindybeige).


US support transported by the UK is more precise re the Arctic Convoys. And frankly Stalin did not really have much choice re the 1939 pact given the state of readiness for war of the Soviet Union at that time, it was quite unprepared for war in 1939 and frankly only slightly better prepared in 1941.

Also circa 50% of all goods appear to have gone to the Soviet Union on the Pacific route on Soviet ships, circa 23% of the aid supplied was via the Arctic route per wiki.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_co ... ar_II#1941

Lindybeige is hardly a historian, albeit I have not watched his broadcasts,whilst I am sure allied supplies made a significant impact I somewhat suspect Stalin's shifting factories east was more significant. Certainly by number count of casualties I would be hard pressed to argue WW2 as a UK/USA victory.


Without the intelligence , sabotage etc of the various resistance groups the war might well have taken a different course.
For instance the polish resistance known as the Home Army (Armia Krajowa - AK) provided 43% of all reports received by the british intelligence from the continent and numbered between 200,000 and 600,000.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Army

Estimates of the Home Army's 1944 strength range between 200,000 and 600,000, the most commonly cited number being 400,000. This last number would make the Home Army not only the largest Polish underground resistance movement but one of the three largest in Europe during World War II.[a] The Home Army was disbanded on 19 January 1945, after the Soviet Red Army had largely cleared Polish territory of German forces.
The Home Army sabotaged German operations such as transports headed for the Eastern Front in the Soviet Union. It also fought several full-scale battles against the Germans, particularly in 1943 and in Operation Tempest in 1944. The Home Army, tied down substantial German forces and destroyed much-needed German supplies.
The most widely known Home Army operation was the 1944 Warsaw Uprising. The partisans also defended Polish civilians against atrocities perpetrated by other military formations.
.
.
.
The Home Army supplied valuable intelligence to the Allies; 43% of all reports received by the British secret services from continental Europe in between 1939 and 1945 came from Polish sources.[8] Until 1942 most British intelligence on Germany came from Home Army reports. Until the end of the war, the Home Army remained Britain's main source of news from Central and Eastern Europe.[9]
Home Army intelligence provided the Allies with information on German concentration camps[10] and on the V-1 flying bomb and V-2 rocket.[1][4] In one Project Big Ben mission (Operation Wildhorn III;[11] Polish cryptonym: Most III, "Bridge III"), a stripped-for-lightness RAF twin-engine Dakota flew from Brindisi in Italy to an abandoned German airfield in Poland to pick up intelligence prepared by Polish aircraft-designer Antoni Kocjan, including 100 lb (45 kg) of V-2 rocket wreckage from a Peenemünde launch, a Special Report 1/R, no. 242, photographs, eight key V-2 parts, and drawings of the wreckage.[12]
Sabotage was coordinated by the Union of Retaliation and later by Wachlarz and Kedyw units.[2]
The Home Army also conducted psychological warfare. Its "Operation N" created the illusion of a German movement of opposition to Hitler within Germany itself.[1] Later Operation Antyk opposed Communist propaganda.



And of course Bletchley Park would have been severely hampered in its attempts to break german encryption if it hasn't been for Polish work which was handed over to the british in 1939

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-14141406

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Re: Brexit: parts of UK manufacturing 'at risk of extinction', CBI says

#145736

Postby mosschops » June 15th, 2018, 8:04 am

Plus the quarter of a million Polish men (and one bear) who fought in North Africa, Greece and Italy as part of the Polish Army in the West. It was them who closed the Falaise pocket in Normandy at Hill 262, who finally took the summit of Monte Cassino and fought in the Battle of Bologna, they also dropped in as part of Market Garden, and had 15 squadrons in the RAF. Then you’ve got the Yugoslavs who pretty much did free themselves, holding down a huge amount of troops in the middle of huge retaliation against the civilian population. The Greeks, who freed some areas on their own before again getting smashed by air power and German armour, but they still continued resisting particularly on the islands in the face of huge odds. Saying there is nothing to be proud of and that people did little to free themselves is both ignorant and insulting.

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Re: Brexit: parts of UK manufacturing 'at risk of extinction', CBI says

#145760

Postby dspp » June 15th, 2018, 10:07 am

mosschops wrote:Saying there is nothing to be proud of and that people did little to free themselves is both ignorant and insulting.


Quite correct mosschops. Many in the occupied Axis territories voluntarily fought & worked hard to free themselves, and by so doing provided a moral example, intelligence, and denied resources, lines of communication, and availability of second-line troops to the Axis powers. We should remember that this was not just in Europe, but worldwide.

Moderator Message:
Derogatory and insulting comments removed.

TJH


regards, dspp

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Re: Brexit: parts of UK manufacturing 'at risk of extinction', CBI says

#145791

Postby redsturgeon » June 15th, 2018, 11:21 am

Moderator Message:
The has now drifted way off topic. If you do not have anything to add referring directly to the OP then do not post it here.

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Re: Brexit: parts of UK manufacturing 'at risk of extinction', CBI says

#146002

Postby BhotiPila » June 15th, 2018, 10:05 pm

Nimrod103 wrote:
BhotiPila wrote:
beeswax wrote:What did the EU ever do for us??

BobbyD wrote:The People's Front of Britannia...

And not forgetting:
sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, public health and peace,


Idque apud imperitos humanitas vocabatur, cum pars servitutis esset.
Tacitus


Very neat! Hat tip, Nimrod! 8-)

Tacitus 2 v 0 Monty Python

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Re: Brexit: parts of UK manufacturing 'at risk of extinction', CBI says

#147281

Postby BobbyD » June 22nd, 2018, 11:01 am

Airbus warns no-deal Brexit could see it leave UK

Airbus has warned it could leave the UK if the country exits the European Union single market and customs union without a transition deal.


- https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44570931

In a Brexit risk assessment on its website, Airbus said the planned transition period... was too short and it would “carefully monitor any new investments in the UK and refrain from extending the UK suppliers/partners base”.

Chief operating officer Tom Williams told [BBC] "We're becoming increasingly frustrated with the lack of clarity and obviously time is running - we're coming up to less than nine months to go.

"Now we have to come to the point where we have to make serious decisions. Quite often those decisions are long-term in nature and without clarity it's too dangerous for us to proceed.

"We're talking about decisions in terms of safety stocks, buffer stocks of components, assuming that there will be chaos at the borders and that material won't be moving freely.

"We are talking about 'do we invest in further capacity?' And we are also talking about what will happen to components from suppliers to us and to airline customers, which today are certified under IATA rules and at the end of March next year those certifications will be invalid.

"Those components won't be able to be fitted in aeroplanes."


- https://www.independent.co.uk/news/busi ... 10961.html

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Re: Brexit: parts of UK manufacturing 'at risk of extinction', CBI says

#147286

Postby RececaDron » June 22nd, 2018, 11:15 am

Project Fear!

People don't need so-called "jobs" - they can eat cake, which as we've been promised by Cabinet members, enjoys an inexhaustible supply.

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Re: Brexit: parts of UK manufacturing 'at risk of extinction', CBI says

#147292

Postby Sundance13 » June 22nd, 2018, 11:36 am

RececaDron wrote:Project Fear!

People don't need so-called "jobs" - they can eat cake, which as we've been promised by Cabinet members, enjoys an inexhaustible supply.



The Govt are one step ahead of you, there’s a lovely plug for fruit picking jobs on the same page as the Airbus article.

ursaminortaur
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Re: Brexit: parts of UK manufacturing 'at risk of extinction', CBI says

#147303

Postby ursaminortaur » June 22nd, 2018, 12:02 pm

RececaDron wrote:Project Fear!

People don't need so-called "jobs" - they can eat cake, which as we've been promised by Cabinet members, enjoys an inexhaustible supply.


Yes, I seem to remember someone famous telling the people that in France - whatever happened to her ? :)

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Re: Brexit: parts of UK manufacturing 'at risk of extinction', CBI says

#147313

Postby SalvorHardin » June 22nd, 2018, 12:26 pm

Is this the same Airbus which said before the vote that if we voted to leave then it would leave the UK? If so how can it pull out now when it has already left? Oh, hang on. Airbus didn’t pull out after all. So what makes Airbus so believable now?

Bear in mind that pulling out in its entirety (that’s the only way that 14,000 jobs will be lost) will cost Airbus a fortune; almost certainly far more than if it stayed and dealt with whatever emerges in the final deal.

Anyone who believes that there will be no Brexit deal is paying way too much attention to the headlines and not enough to prices and the lack of preparations for no deal (all sorts of weird price action would be happening, but it isn't). By not preparing for no deal the government signalled long ago that it will accept a deal. Now they’re just arguing over the terms.

The only way that there will be no deal is if the EU or someone else with a veto (a regional parliament) exercises it
Moderator Message:
RS: Unnecessary inflamatory phrase removed


As usual Guido Fawkes is miles ahead of the remain supporting press:

https://order-order.com/2018/06/22/set- ... us-splash/

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Re: Brexit: parts of UK manufacturing 'at risk of extinction', CBI says

#147320

Postby BobbyD » June 22nd, 2018, 12:39 pm

SalvorHardin wrote:Anyone who believes that there will be no Brexit deal is paying way too much attention to the headlines and not enough to prices and the lack of preparations for no deal (all sorts of weird price action would be happening, but it isn't). By not preparing for no deal the government signalled long ago that it will accept a deal. Now they’re just arguing over the terms.


The UK government can't grant itself a deal. It is also being held hostage by the ERG, whose every threat to dethrone May is met with capitulation. Strong and stable! Only a fool would rule anything out.

ursaminortaur
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Re: Brexit: parts of UK manufacturing 'at risk of extinction', CBI says

#147333

Postby ursaminortaur » June 22nd, 2018, 1:03 pm

SalvorHardin wrote:Is this the same Airbus which said before the vote that if we voted to leave then it would leave the UK? If so how can it pull out now when it has already left? Oh, hang on. Airbus didn’t pull out after all. So what makes Airbus so believable now?

Bear in mind that pulling out in its entirety (that’s the only way that 14,000 jobs will be lost) will cost Airbus a fortune; almost certainly far more than if it stayed and dealt with whatever emerges in the final deal.

Anyone who believes that there will be no Brexit deal is paying way too much attention to the headlines and not enough to prices and the lack of preparations for no deal (all sorts of weird price action would be happening, but it isn't). By not preparing for no deal the government signalled long ago that it will accept a deal. Now they’re just arguing over the terms.

The only way that there will be no deal is if the EU or someone else with a veto (a regional parliament) exercises it

As usual Guido Fawkes is miles ahead of the remain supporting press:

https://order-order.com/2018/06/22/set- ... us-splash/


Way behind eurefrendum.com who have been going on about the certification problem since November.

http://www.eureferendum.com/

And so we see on the front page of The Times a report that Airbus is on the brink of abandoning the UK as a result of Brexit, "because of worries that EU safety certification will not apply from March next year".

This, of course, is something we wrote about in November last year, confirming the problem in December. But we're only a blog so none of the legacy media took the blind bit of notice. When the mighty Times discovers the problem, though, it goes straight on the front page.

Be aware though, you can read more and in greater depth on this blog, without having to get round the paywall. Specifically, what The Times isn't saying (probably doesn't know) is that Airbus is regulated by EASA. It is not directly affected by Brexit. Its certification will remain valid after we leave the EU.

Even in the UK, therefore, its problems do not lie not with its own operations but with its suppliers, many of which come under Civil Aviation Authority and will no longer be certified come Brexit.

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Re: Brexit: parts of UK manufacturing 'at risk of extinction', CBI says

#147363

Postby Sundance13 » June 22nd, 2018, 3:17 pm

SalvorHardin wrote:Is this the same Airbus which said before the vote that if we voted to leave then it would leave the UK? If so how can it pull out now when it has already left? Oh, hang on. Airbus didn’t pull out after all. So what makes Airbus so believable now?

Bear in mind that pulling out in its entirety (that’s the only way that 14,000 jobs will be lost) will cost Airbus a fortune; almost certainly far more than if it stayed and dealt with whatever emerges in the final deal.

Anyone who believes that there will be no Brexit deal is paying way too much attention to the headlines and not enough to prices and the lack of preparations for no deal (all sorts of weird price action would be happening, but it isn't). By not preparing for no deal the government signalled long ago that it will accept a deal. Now they’re just arguing over the terms.

The only way that there will be no deal is if the EU or someone else with a veto (a regional parliament) exercises it
Moderator Message:
RS: Unnecessary inflamatory phrase removed


As usual Guido Fawkes is miles ahead of the remain supporting press:

https://order-order.com/2018/06/22/set- ... us-splash/



I don’t put much faith in markets, they didn’t call the referendum outcome, and not sure why you feel they have a greater insight than anyone else in terms of impact of Brexit or likelihood of deal.

From what I’ve read most businesses are woefully underprepared for Brexit, most are convinced a deal will be done. So it’s ignorance and complacency driving events currently, a dangerous combination.

I think you’re right in saying May will accept any deal, however I’m not convinced other parts of her party will, particularly the ERG contingent, many of whom desire a ‘no deal’, for differing reasons. The Irish issue still hasn’t been resolved and looks no closer to resolution. Many Brexiteers also seem fairly happy with a no deal scenario, not believing the ‘Project Fear’ scare stories.

So I understand why you think there’s little chance of a no deal, but I think you are underestimating how difficult it will be for May to successfully get a deal through her party, Parliament and the EU, given the enormous divisions and scepticism over no deal impacts.

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Re: Brexit: parts of UK manufacturing 'at risk of extinction', CBI says

#147429

Postby BobbyD » June 22nd, 2018, 9:36 pm

BMW joins Airbus in Brexit warning

The car giant BMW has followed plane-maker Airbus in warning about the consequences of Brexit uncertainty.

BMW UK boss Ian Robertson says clarity is needed by the end of the summer. BMW makes the Mini and Rolls Royce and employs about 8,000 people in the UK.



- https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44582831

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Re: Brexit: parts of UK manufacturing 'at risk of extinction', CBI says

#147432

Postby Nimrod103 » June 22nd, 2018, 10:12 pm

BobbyD wrote:
BMW joins Airbus in Brexit warning

The car giant BMW has followed plane-maker Airbus in warning about the consequences of Brexit uncertainty.

BMW UK boss Ian Robertson says clarity is needed by the end of the summer. BMW makes the Mini and Rolls Royce and employs about 8,000 people in the UK.



- https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44582831


I'll see your BMW, and raise you a ministerial threat of economic retribution on Airbus if it leaves the UK:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... it-threat/

Ben Wallace gives indications of being one of the few current Tory MPs who isn't an invertebrate.


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