Remove ads

Introducing the LemonFools Personal Finance Calculators

Vote Leave, Electoral Commission findings.

High levels of moderation
Forum rules
no trolling, name calling, no arguments.
Material posted here that is disparaging towards any group on the basis of race, faith, nationality, gender, disability or sexual orientation will be deleted and any poster of such material risks suspension.
anticrank
Lemon Slice
Posts: 509
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 10:34 am
Has thanked: 64 times
Been thanked: 19 times

Vote Leave, Electoral Commission findings.

#145616

Postby anticrank » June 14th, 2018, 2:36 pm

"Has Vote Leave has broken the law? The Electoral Commission thinks so."

https://goodlawproject.org/the-electora ... e-the-law/

The author infers this from the statutory 28 days' notice given to the parties to respond. Required only if the EC finds against them.

In normal times, this would be considered a serious matter.

No doubt there'll be much unsubstantiated whataboutery from Brexiters.

redsturgeon
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3330
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 9:06 am
Has thanked: 260 times
Been thanked: 432 times

Re: Vote Leave, Electoral Commission findings.

#145664

Postby redsturgeon » June 14th, 2018, 7:05 pm

Moderator Message:
I've just deleted the last two posts here. Let's not get dragged down the, "they said", "No they didn't" route please.

JMN2
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1989
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:21 am
Has thanked: 307 times
Been thanked: 280 times

Re: Vote Leave, Electoral Commission findings.

#145671

Postby JMN2 » June 14th, 2018, 8:13 pm

Tit for tat? List every lie and illegal deed from both sides and cancel them out against each other, good old reconciliation with a red pen, see how it balances.

Charlottesquare
2 Lemon pips
Posts: 218
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 3:22 pm
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 25 times

Re: Vote Leave, Electoral Commission findings.

#145683

Postby Charlottesquare » June 14th, 2018, 9:48 pm

JMN2 wrote:Tit for tat? List every lie and illegal deed from both sides and cancel them out against each other, good old reconciliation with a red pen, see how it balances.


In effect Contra rebels.

anticrank
Lemon Slice
Posts: 509
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 10:34 am
Has thanked: 64 times
Been thanked: 19 times

Re: Vote Leave, Electoral Commission findings.

#145684

Postby anticrank » June 14th, 2018, 9:53 pm

JMN2 wrote:Tit for tat? List every lie and illegal deed from both sides and cancel them out against each other, good old reconciliation with a red pen, see how it balances.


You think if both sides lie and break the law that the wrong doing cancels out, and we're all square? No, that's absurd. There's literally no limit to the wrong-doing that could be done under that principle, leaving everyone all square.

Dishonesty and illegality does not cancel itself out, just because both sides are at it. If it were proven that the remain campaign had broken the law, that would further deprive the referendum result of legitimacy. The effect of illegality is cumulative. It's worse if both sides are at it.

There is no evidence of illegality on the Remain side. There are allegations of dishonesty, but, if true, this simply acts to delegitimise the result. So, by all means seek evidence of Remain campaign illegality. It all goes to undermine the legitimacy of the result.

ap8889
Lemon Slice
Posts: 946
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 10:55 am
Has thanked: 90 times
Been thanked: 193 times

Re: Vote Leave, Electoral Commission findings.

#145698

Postby ap8889 » June 14th, 2018, 11:00 pm

https://order-order.com/2018/03/26/rema ... far-worse/

https://order-order.com/2018/06/03/prit ... ommission/


Opens popcorn while enjoying the sight of Remain making desperate attempts to claim the moral high ground, while reportedly up to their necks in the same cesspit.

ap8889
Lemon Slice
Posts: 946
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 10:55 am
Has thanked: 90 times
Been thanked: 193 times

Re: Vote Leave, Electoral Commission findings.

#145700

Postby ap8889 » June 14th, 2018, 11:31 pm

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... exit-bias/

"An investigation by The Sunday Telegraph found that four of the Electoral Commission’s 10 commissioners, including the chairman, had made pronouncements on Brexit since the referendum – all of them backing Remain."

Legitimacy of the Electoral Commission to be fit to even adjudicate is in question. An impartial Electoral Commission would not behave in the manner we have seen so far. An impartial observer might form the opinion that investigating one side only despite allegations on both sides is evidence of a prejudiced panel. Their public pronouncements alone would provide evidence to support that conclusion.

I take any Electoral Commission findings with a pinch of salt. In fact I think they are open to harsh criticism at this point.

anticrank
Lemon Slice
Posts: 509
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 10:34 am
Has thanked: 64 times
Been thanked: 19 times

Re: Vote Leave, Electoral Commission findings.

#145702

Postby anticrank » June 14th, 2018, 11:43 pm

ap8889 wrote:https://order-order.com/2018/03/26/remain-campaign-used-exactly-spending-tactics-vote-leave-far-worse/

https://order-order.com/2018/06/03/prit ... ommission/


Opens popcorn while enjoying the sight of Remain making desperate attempts to claim the moral high ground, while reportedly up to their necks in the same cesspit.


Well, then, a rich Brexiter, of which there are many, might seek to encourage (via judicial review, perhaps) the EC to perform a proper investigation into the Remain campaign's spending. If the evidence is so clear, the threat of JR should be sufficient to prompt action.

Now, I see no evidence of anyone seriously pursuing this line of action. A finding by the EC against Remain would simply further undermine the legitimacy of the result. Not a risk Brexiters wish to take. Alternatively, a failure to find against Remain, would be embarrassing for the Brexiter litigants. The Leave campaign would be left looking singularly dirty.

Like I said previously, by all means seek to prove illegality in the Remain campaign. All it does is weaken the standing of the result. Which is fine, AFAIAC.

anticrank
Lemon Slice
Posts: 509
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 10:34 am
Has thanked: 64 times
Been thanked: 19 times

Re: Vote Leave, Electoral Commission findings.

#145707

Postby anticrank » June 14th, 2018, 11:51 pm

ap8889 wrote:https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/03/31/election-watchdogs-face-calls-resign-brexit-bias/

"An investigation by The Sunday Telegraph found that four of the Electoral Commission’s 10 commissioners, including the chairman, had made pronouncements on Brexit since the referendum – all of them backing Remain."

Legitimacy of the Electoral Commission to be fit to even adjudicate is in question. An impartial Electoral Commission would not behave in the manner we have seen so far. An impartial observer might form the opinion that investigating one side only despite allegations on both sides is evidence of a prejudiced panel. Their public pronouncements alone would provide evidence to support that conclusion.

I take any Electoral Commission findings with a pinch of salt. In fact I think they are open to harsh criticism at this point.


The EC had to be forced, by threat of legal action, to properly investigate the Vote Leave spending & coordination.

As for EC members political views, they are irrelevant. Your argument is classic ad hominem. Worthless. You can point to no misconduct. If you want an investigation, follow the example set by others, and seek judicial review.

As I keep repeating, go for it. The more illegality exposed, the better; from my perspective.

ap8889
Lemon Slice
Posts: 946
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 10:55 am
Has thanked: 90 times
Been thanked: 193 times

Re: Vote Leave, Electoral Commission findings.

#145709

Postby ap8889 » June 14th, 2018, 11:58 pm

History teaches us a biased court, a Volksgerichthof can pronounce judgement all it likes, yet still not give justice.

ap8889
Lemon Slice
Posts: 946
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 10:55 am
Has thanked: 90 times
Been thanked: 193 times

Re: Vote Leave, Electoral Commission findings.

#145710

Postby ap8889 » June 15th, 2018, 12:14 am

anticrank wrote:Well, then, a rich Brexiter, of which there are many, might seek to encourage (via judicial review, perhaps) the EC to perform a proper investigation into the Remain campaign's spending. If the evidence is so clear, the threat of JR should be sufficient to prompt action.

Now, I see no evidence of anyone seriously pursuing this line of action.


The dossier was presented 11 days ago, so lets see what happens. I am expecting a telling silence, after which a Judicial Review will become necessary. Let us give them the benefit of the doubt while they reflect on the allegations in the dossier. Maybe they will choose inaction, ignominy and shame. Maybe not.

BobbyD
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1628
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 46 times
Been thanked: 84 times

Re: Vote Leave, Electoral Commission findings.

#145726

Postby BobbyD » June 15th, 2018, 6:54 am

ap8889 wrote:History teaches us a biased court, a Volksgerichthof can pronounce judgement all it likes, yet still not give justice.


You have yet to produce any evidence that the EC is biased, just defamatory supposition.

Sundance13
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1356
Joined: March 15th, 2017, 1:02 pm
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 60 times

Re: Vote Leave, Electoral Commission findings.

#145783

Postby Sundance13 » June 15th, 2018, 10:55 am

Got reminded of this quote by Michael Gove this morning, copied below for those who continue to claim a vote to leave was a vote for a hard or no deal Brexit, and that anything less is BINO. Shows nicely more of the utter dishonesty of Vote Leave.

M Gove 15/4/2016:

Justice Secretary and Vote Leave chair Michael Gove said yesterday, “There is a free-trade zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey that all European nations have access to, regardless of whether they are in our out of the euro or EU. After we vote to leave we will remain in the zone. The suggestion that Bosnia, Serbia, Albania and Ukraine would remain part of this free-trade area – and Britain would be on the outside with just Belarus – is as credible as [European Commission President] Jean-Claude Juncker joining UKIP.” He added, “For Europe, Britain voting to leave will be the beginning of something potentially even more exciting – the democratic liberation of a whole Continent.”

ap8889
Lemon Slice
Posts: 946
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 10:55 am
Has thanked: 90 times
Been thanked: 193 times

Re: Vote Leave, Electoral Commission findings.

#145864

Postby ap8889 » June 15th, 2018, 2:35 pm

It's not at all dishonest to reject a bad deal. I would love to be able to trade freely with Europe. I just prefer democracy. That is the real choice that the EU has allowed us by their refusal to reform.

Sundance13
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1356
Joined: March 15th, 2017, 1:02 pm
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 60 times

Re: Vote Leave, Electoral Commission findings.

#145875

Postby Sundance13 » June 15th, 2018, 3:15 pm

ap8889 wrote:It's not at all dishonest to reject a bad deal. I would love to be able to trade freely with Europe. I just prefer democracy. That is the real choice that the EU has allowed us by their refusal to reform.



Not at all, we can trade freely with them and fully respect the vote to leave, unfortunately we’ve decided to stick red lines up which prevent this.

Gove’s quote is entirely in keeping with a soft Brexit option, where we leave the EU but choose to adhere to jointly agreed regulatory standards.

Ashfordian
Lemon Slice
Posts: 585
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 5:47 pm
Has thanked: 93 times
Been thanked: 43 times

Re: Vote Leave, Electoral Commission findings.

#145938

Postby Ashfordian » June 15th, 2018, 6:12 pm

ap8889 wrote:It's not at all dishonest to reject a bad deal. I would love to be able to trade freely with Europe. I just prefer democracy. That is the real choice that the EU has allowed us by their refusal to reform.


100% agree with you on rejecting a bad deal. If the deal is rejected we get a clean(WTO) Brexit. Having this as the fallback option will get us the best deal.

Sundance13
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1356
Joined: March 15th, 2017, 1:02 pm
Has thanked: 14 times
Been thanked: 60 times

Re: Vote Leave, Electoral Commission findings.

#145979

Postby Sundance13 » June 15th, 2018, 8:42 pm

Ashfordian wrote:
ap8889 wrote:It's not at all dishonest to reject a bad deal. I would love to be able to trade freely with Europe. I just prefer democracy. That is the real choice that the EU has allowed us by their refusal to reform.


100% agree with you on rejecting a bad deal. If the deal is rejected we get a clean(WTO) Brexit. Having this as the fallback option will get us the best deal.


The only clean thing about a clean Brexit is the name.

BobbyD
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1628
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 46 times
Been thanked: 84 times

Re: Vote Leave, Electoral Commission findings.

#146202

Postby BobbyD » June 17th, 2018, 12:38 am

Leave. EU faces new questions over contacts with Russia
MPs say latest revelations show Arron Banks and Andy Wigmore may have misled parliament

...

The material also appears to show that Andy Wigmore, spokesman for the Leave.EU campaign and the business partner of Arron Banks, the biggest funder of Brexit, passed confidential legal documents to high-ranking officials at the Russian embassy and then denied it to parliament.



- https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... dy-wigmore


Return to “Polite Discussions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest