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Boris resigns

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dspp
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Re: Boris resigns

#151905

Postby dspp » July 12th, 2018, 10:00 am

NeilW wrote:
dspp wrote:Surely you've understood the basics by now. This is a rather solemn international agreement that the UK entered willingly into. Which many Brexiteers are willing to repudiate. Which would almost certainly lead to a return to the "Troubles" with all that would follow from that.


Don't threaten war just because you can't get what you want.


I'm not threatening anything, just observing that those closer to the issue than I are extremely concerned. My recollection is of checking under my car, and carrying an SLR, both always in the cold/dark/rain, and I am very keen that we do not return to those days. You may have had different experiences.

regards, dspp

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Re: Boris resigns

#151908

Postby gryffron » July 12th, 2018, 10:07 am

The Troubles didn't end because of the Good Friday Agreement.

The IRA called their cease fire because their organisation was so riddled with British informers that they were unable to operate. They were already beaten. That's what forced them to negotiate.

It is notable that attacks by follow on groups like the Continuity IRA and Real IRA were thwarted more often than they succeeded. Almost certainly for the same reason.

And BTW. We've already suspended the NI assembly. So there's already a substantial breach of the GFA. Is that causing an escalation of violence?

Threats of any substantial renewal of IRA violence are just more Project Fear.

Gryff

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Re: Boris resigns

#151910

Postby hiriskpaul » July 12th, 2018, 10:30 am

NeilW wrote:
dspp wrote:Surely you've understood the basics by now. This is a rather solemn international agreement that the UK entered willingly into. Which many Brexiteers are willing to repudiate. Which would almost certainly lead to a return to the "Troubles" with all that would follow from that.


Don't threaten war just because you can't get what you want. It's not very nice, nor is it very likely. Ireland has moved on.

Similarly the 'international agreement' is completely unenforceable in law. The International Courts are barred from hearing cases regarding the UK and present or former members of the Commonwealth. That is deliberately the case so that the GFA can never be interpreted judicially and the 'correct' interpretation decided upon. What the GFA means is in the eye of the beholder. Classic Blairite triangulation written down.

In any case, the International Court of Justice cannot hear any dispute between Ireland and the UK in relation to Northern Ireland. The UK’s exclusion in terms of permitting International Court of Justice rulings is in respect of any dispute with a country which is or has been a member of the Commonwealth. Citizens cannot bring cases.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2017/583116/IPOL_BRI(2017)583116_EN.pdf

The GFA is a political agreement from a point in time that is now history.

If the UK leaves the EU without a deal, the UK will leave the Irish border alone and do nothing on its side. And as we are a sovereign state, there is no power on earth that can force us to do anything because they don't have enough tanks. The issue is then one for the EU, and since there is no political will in Ireland to build a wall, and certainly no money forthcoming from the Irish tax payers there won't be one.

The result will be a pragmatic fudge where differences in regulations are patched up at the ports. The beauty of an island is that everything going in and out of the island has to go via the ports. So that is where the magic will happen.

Ireland will be fudged to keep the peace, as it has been for over a century.

It's a non-issue, and one for Brussels, not London.

OK, so the plan is to take control of our borders, except for the Irish border. Illegal immigrants and EU citizens will be free to enter the UK via Ireland, along with any goods we would be collecting tariffs on if they came via Dover. That all makes perfect sense now.

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Re: Boris resigns

#151920

Postby BobbyD » July 12th, 2018, 10:59 am

NeilW wrote:
dspp wrote:Surely you've understood the basics by now. This is a rather solemn international agreement that the UK entered willingly into. Which many Brexiteers are willing to repudiate. Which would almost certainly lead to a return to the "Troubles" with all that would follow from that.


Don't threaten war just because you can't get what you want. It's not very nice, nor is it very likely. Ireland has moved on.


According to PSNI figures seen by the Guardian, of the 27 victims shot in this latest wave of paramilitary “punishment” attacks, dissident republican groups such as the New IRA or Continuity IRA have been responsible for shooting 24 of them.

Many of the victims are often beaten after being accused of criminal actions from drug dealing to car theft, without any form of legal representation or appeal.


- https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-a ... -1.3424471

NeilW wrote:
If the UK leaves the EU without a deal, the UK will leave the Irish border alone and do nothing on its side. And as we are a sovereign state, there is no power on earth that can force us to do anything because they don't have enough tanks.


The WTO doesn't need tanks.

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Re: Boris resigns

#151923

Postby ursaminortaur » July 12th, 2018, 11:05 am

hiriskpaul wrote:
NeilW wrote:
dspp wrote:Surely you've understood the basics by now. This is a rather solemn international agreement that the UK entered willingly into. Which many Brexiteers are willing to repudiate. Which would almost certainly lead to a return to the "Troubles" with all that would follow from that.


Don't threaten war just because you can't get what you want. It's not very nice, nor is it very likely. Ireland has moved on.

Similarly the 'international agreement' is completely unenforceable in law. The International Courts are barred from hearing cases regarding the UK and present or former members of the Commonwealth. That is deliberately the case so that the GFA can never be interpreted judicially and the 'correct' interpretation decided upon. What the GFA means is in the eye of the beholder. Classic Blairite triangulation written down.

In any case, the International Court of Justice cannot hear any dispute between Ireland and the UK in relation to Northern Ireland. The UK’s exclusion in terms of permitting International Court of Justice rulings is in respect of any dispute with a country which is or has been a member of the Commonwealth. Citizens cannot bring cases.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2017/583116/IPOL_BRI(2017)583116_EN.pdf

The GFA is a political agreement from a point in time that is now history.

If the UK leaves the EU without a deal, the UK will leave the Irish border alone and do nothing on its side. And as we are a sovereign state, there is no power on earth that can force us to do anything because they don't have enough tanks. The issue is then one for the EU, and since there is no political will in Ireland to build a wall, and certainly no money forthcoming from the Irish tax payers there won't be one.

The result will be a pragmatic fudge where differences in regulations are patched up at the ports. The beauty of an island is that everything going in and out of the island has to go via the ports. So that is where the magic will happen.

Ireland will be fudged to keep the peace, as it has been for over a century.

It's a non-issue, and one for Brussels, not London.

OK, so the plan is to take control of our borders, except for the Irish border. Illegal immigrants and EU citizens will be free to enter the UK via Ireland, along with any goods we would be collecting tariffs on if they came via Dover. That all makes perfect sense now.



And that people smuggling route is already in use

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5811765/How-illegal-immigrants-smuggled-Britain-Irish-border.html

A new people-smuggling route to the UK via Ireland has been set up to dodge tighter cross-Channel security raising fears today it is the new 'back door to Britain'.
Migrants are paying at least £10,000 for new EU passports before being flown from Paris to Dublin on the promise identity checks are far laxer there than at Gatwick, Heathrow or Dover.
They then travel by car over the UK's open border into Northern Ireland, take the ferry from Belfast to Glasgow and then the final leg to London by road to start their new life in Britain.
A brazen people-smuggler making a fortune from the scam has said the 'Irish route' is 'a guaranteed way to get into the UK'.

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Re: Boris resigns

#151935

Postby Sundance13 » July 12th, 2018, 11:45 am

hiriskpaul wrote:
NeilW wrote:
dspp wrote:Surely you've understood the basics by now. This is a rather solemn international agreement that the UK entered willingly into. Which many Brexiteers are willing to repudiate. Which would almost certainly lead to a return to the "Troubles" with all that would follow from that.


Don't threaten war just because you can't get what you want. It's not very nice, nor is it very likely. Ireland has moved on.

Similarly the 'international agreement' is completely unenforceable in law. The International Courts are barred from hearing cases regarding the UK and present or former members of the Commonwealth. That is deliberately the case so that the GFA can never be interpreted judicially and the 'correct' interpretation decided upon. What the GFA means is in the eye of the beholder. Classic Blairite triangulation written down.

In any case, the International Court of Justice cannot hear any dispute between Ireland and the UK in relation to Northern Ireland. The UK’s exclusion in terms of permitting International Court of Justice rulings is in respect of any dispute with a country which is or has been a member of the Commonwealth. Citizens cannot bring cases.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2017/583116/IPOL_BRI(2017)583116_EN.pdf

The GFA is a political agreement from a point in time that is now history.

If the UK leaves the EU without a deal, the UK will leave the Irish border alone and do nothing on its side. And as we are a sovereign state, there is no power on earth that can force us to do anything because they don't have enough tanks. The issue is then one for the EU, and since there is no political will in Ireland to build a wall, and certainly no money forthcoming from the Irish tax payers there won't be one.

The result will be a pragmatic fudge where differences in regulations are patched up at the ports. The beauty of an island is that everything going in and out of the island has to go via the ports. So that is where the magic will happen.

Ireland will be fudged to keep the peace, as it has been for over a century.

It's a non-issue, and one for Brussels, not London.

OK, so the plan is to take control of our borders, except for the Irish border. Illegal immigrants and EU citizens will be free to enter the UK via Ireland, along with any goods we would be collecting tariffs on if they came via Dover. That all makes perfect sense now.



There isn’t a plan or much in the way of joined up thinking. Strong talking and soundbytes like ‘take back control’and ‘Global Britain’ sound great, but eventually you need something tangible and feasible to convert the visions into, that’s why the Govt & Civil Service are struggling so much.

That’s ultimately why I gave up on Brexit, it’s well intentioned but ultimately a nostalgia overdose, with a few ropey facts/urban myths thrown in to try and dress it up into something more intellectual and to paint the EU as an evil galactic empire, which we need to break free of.

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Re: Boris resigns

#151958

Postby hiriskpaul » July 12th, 2018, 12:43 pm

Sundance13 wrote:There isn’t a plan or much in the way of joined up thinking. Strong talking and soundbytes like ‘take back control’and ‘Global Britain’ sound great, but eventually you need something tangible and feasible to convert the visions into, that’s why the Govt & Civil Service are struggling so much.


I realise that, I was just being a bit flippant! The EU proposal to put the border down the Irish Sea seems very pragmatic and in reality is what will happen by default if there are no border checks between NI/ROI. There is no way the government can formally back this though, except perhaps as a back-stop, while the DUP have a veto.

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Re: Boris resigns

#151962

Postby ursaminortaur » July 12th, 2018, 1:08 pm

ap8889 wrote:
Sundance13 wrote:..... the EU as an evil galactic empire, which we need to break free of.


"The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers."

This. The EU could have kept the UK had it only been a tiny bit less meddlesome and controlling, determined to crush all human resistance, such as rebel barrow-boys selling fruit and veg in pounds and ounces.

They couldn't help powermongering and empire- building, expanding east, even to the very borders of Asia.

Too bad.


You do realise that the chief proponent of that expansion of the EU to the east was the UK.

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Re: Boris resigns

#151979

Postby XFool » July 12th, 2018, 2:05 pm

ap8889 wrote:
Sundance13 wrote:..... the EU as an evil galactic empire, which we need to break free of.

"The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers."

This. The EU could have kept the UK had it only been a tiny bit less meddlesome and controlling, determined to crush all human resistance, such as rebel barrow-boys selling fruit and veg in pounds and ounces.

Arrrgghh!

But isn't this simply one quite good example of the phoney objections to the EU? (Aren't they all?)

Surely no country can or will allow TWO official mensuration systems for weights and measures in buying or selling? There HAS to be just ONE official system. That's quite different from asking for "A stone of spuds please!"

I remember I used to ask for "half a pound of cheese" (not sure if it would work now!) and got it, more or less. Just that it was weighed out in Kilograms etc. AFAICS nothing stopped anyone asking for, or being sold, a pound of this, or a stone of that - just that it HAD to be measured out using the current official UK standards for weights & measures.

My belief is many of the objections to EU rules were ALWAYS essentially political in origin, rather than genuine objections leading to political consequences.

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Re: Boris resigns

#151982

Postby BobbyD » July 12th, 2018, 2:12 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:You do realise that the chief proponent of that expansion of the EU to the east was the UK.


It's almost like we wanted to move the political centre in the EU to the right and dilute support for the CAP...

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Re: Boris resigns

#152168

Postby BobbyD » July 13th, 2018, 12:39 pm

NeilW wrote:Don't threaten war just because you can't get what you want. It's not very nice, nor is it very likely. Ireland has moved on.



Man held on suspicion of attempted murder as Derry violence goes on
Northern Ireland police say officers came under sustained attack in Bogside area

A 22-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of attempted murder as explosive devices were thrown at police on a sixth successive night of violence in Derry.

Two devices were aimed at officers during unrest in the Bogside area, with 74 petrol bombs also thrown. Two more men, aged 18 and 50, were also arrested.




- https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... rn-ireland

Stonge
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Re: Boris resigns

#152262

Postby Stonge » July 13th, 2018, 8:49 pm

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/10/opin ... rexit.html

Moderator Message:
RS: Bare links are not acceptable, please provide either a summary or comment as to why you find the link interesting.

Sorcery
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Re: Boris resigns

#152264

Postby Sorcery » July 13th, 2018, 9:17 pm

Stonge, it would be helpful if you could have provided some description such as :
"Deluded writer for the UK Times writing for the New York Times, blames Boris for everything Brexit related"

From the article :
It is petrifying that the deliberate deceptions and wild ego of one man can so mislead a nation. (Americans know all about that.) One insider told me that Mrs. May was prepared for Mr. Johnson’s defection, and will outflank him, persuading wavering Conservatives that the time for fantasy has passed.

I have often defended Theresa May on TLF, can't see me ever being that gushing on so little evidence, though.
Think I can safely say Boris influenced me less than Gove, Frank Field, Andrea Leadsom, Gisella Stewart, Kate Hoey for Brexit. David Cameron, George Osbourne & Obama were also convincing in the opposite way they intended (mainly for lying).

Late edit: Forgot Saint Nigel.

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Re: Boris resigns

#152278

Postby BobbyD » July 14th, 2018, 4:37 am

BobbyD wrote:
NeilW wrote:Don't threaten war just because you can't get what you want. It's not very nice, nor is it very likely. Ireland has moved on.



Man held on suspicion of attempted murder as Derry violence goes on
Northern Ireland police say officers came under sustained attack in Bogside area

A 22-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of attempted murder as explosive devices were thrown at police on a sixth successive night of violence in Derry.

Two devices were aimed at officers during unrest in the Bogside area, with 74 petrol bombs also thrown. Two more men, aged 18 and 50, were also arrested.




- https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... rn-ireland


Gerry Adams home attacked with 'explosive device'

...

Explosive devices were thrown at the homes of prominent republican figures in Northern Ireland, including the former Sinn Féin leader Gerry Adams, on Friday night, the party has said.

The Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) confirmed on Friday it was dealing with two incidents at two addresses in west Belfast, though officers declined to give any further details.


- https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... rn-ireland

Nimrod103
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Re: Boris resigns

#152303

Postby Nimrod103 » July 14th, 2018, 10:45 am

BobbyD wrote:
BobbyD wrote:
NeilW wrote:Don't threaten war just because you can't get what you want. It's not very nice, nor is it very likely. Ireland has moved on.



Man held on suspicion of attempted murder as Derry violence goes on
Northern Ireland police say officers came under sustained attack in Bogside area

A 22-year-old man has been arrested on suspicion of attempted murder as explosive devices were thrown at police on a sixth successive night of violence in Derry.

Two devices were aimed at officers during unrest in the Bogside area, with 74 petrol bombs also thrown. Two more men, aged 18 and 50, were also arrested.




- https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... rn-ireland


Gerry Adams home attacked with 'explosive device'

...

Explosive devices were thrown at the homes of prominent republican figures in Northern Ireland, including the former Sinn Féin leader Gerry Adams, on Friday night, the party has said.

The Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) confirmed on Friday it was dealing with two incidents at two addresses in west Belfast, though officers declined to give any further details.


- https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... rn-ireland


I would guess this attack is more likely to have been from dissident republicans.

PS I often find the posting times of people's comments intriguing.

ursaminortaur
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Re: Boris resigns

#152305

Postby ursaminortaur » July 14th, 2018, 11:05 am

Nimrod103 wrote:
BobbyD wrote:


Gerry Adams home attacked with 'explosive device'

...

Explosive devices were thrown at the homes of prominent republican figures in Northern Ireland, including the former Sinn Féin leader Gerry Adams, on Friday night, the party has said.

The Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) confirmed on Friday it was dealing with two incidents at two addresses in west Belfast, though officers declined to give any further details.


- https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... rn-ireland


I would guess this attack is more likely to have been from dissident republicans.

PS I often find the posting times of people's comments intriguing.



https://www.ft.com/content/c16d1236-86a9-11e8-96dd-fa565ec55929


Unionist and Nationalist parties in Northern Ireland made a rare joint statement calling for calm on Friday after six consecutive nights of rioting in Londonderry. The violence was blamed on dissident Irish republicans who reject Sinn Féin’s support for the Good Friday deal. Earlier in the week, pro-British loyalists were blamed for violence in Belfast on the eve of celebrations to mark the 1690 Battle of the Boyne, an event they hold dear.



https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jul/12/northern-ireland-orange-order-parades-12-july-amid-violence-belfast-derry

Police had warned the loyalist paramilitary Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) was planning to “orchestrate and participate in serious disorder” in east Belfast.
The violence came after loyalists expressed anger at moves by authorities to limit the size of bonfires at two controversial sites in the east of the city. Hundreds of eleventh night bonfires were lit at midnight across Northern Ireland to usher in 12 July.

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Re: Boris resigns

#152318

Postby Nimrod103 » July 14th, 2018, 12:55 pm

ursaminortaur wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:


I would guess this attack is more likely to have been from dissident republicans.

PS I often find the posting times of people's comments intriguing.



https://www.ft.com/content/c16d1236-86a9-11e8-96dd-fa565ec55929


Unionist and Nationalist parties in Northern Ireland made a rare joint statement calling for calm on Friday after six consecutive nights of rioting in Londonderry. The violence was blamed on dissident Irish republicans who reject Sinn Féin’s support for the Good Friday deal. Earlier in the week, pro-British loyalists were blamed for violence in Belfast on the eve of celebrations to mark the 1690 Battle of the Boyne, an event they hold dear.



https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jul/12/northern-ireland-orange-order-parades-12-july-amid-violence-belfast-derry

Police had warned the loyalist paramilitary Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) was planning to “orchestrate and participate in serious disorder” in east Belfast.
The violence came after loyalists expressed anger at moves by authorities to limit the size of bonfires at two controversial sites in the east of the city. Hundreds of eleventh night bonfires were lit at midnight across Northern Ireland to usher in 12 July.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... nfirm.html

The headline reads:
Former Sinn Fein leader Gerry Adams calls on those responsible for bombing his home to 'come and sit down and tell me what it's about' after six nights of violence 'from dissident Republicans'

Can't be bothered to read the article, but the headline suggests Adams knows exactly what it is all about.

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Re: Boris resigns

#152323

Postby ursaminortaur » July 14th, 2018, 1:20 pm

Nimrod103 wrote:
ursaminortaur wrote:
Nimrod103 wrote:
I would guess this attack is more likely to have been from dissident republicans.

PS I often find the posting times of people's comments intriguing.



https://www.ft.com/content/c16d1236-86a9-11e8-96dd-fa565ec55929


Unionist and Nationalist parties in Northern Ireland made a rare joint statement calling for calm on Friday after six consecutive nights of rioting in Londonderry. The violence was blamed on dissident Irish republicans who reject Sinn Féin’s support for the Good Friday deal. Earlier in the week, pro-British loyalists were blamed for violence in Belfast on the eve of celebrations to mark the 1690 Battle of the Boyne, an event they hold dear.



https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jul/12/northern-ireland-orange-order-parades-12-july-amid-violence-belfast-derry

Police had warned the loyalist paramilitary Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) was planning to “orchestrate and participate in serious disorder” in east Belfast.
The violence came after loyalists expressed anger at moves by authorities to limit the size of bonfires at two controversial sites in the east of the city. Hundreds of eleventh night bonfires were lit at midnight across Northern Ireland to usher in 12 July.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... nfirm.html

The headline reads:
Former Sinn Fein leader Gerry Adams calls on those responsible for bombing his home to 'come and sit down and tell me what it's about' after six nights of violence 'from dissident Republicans'

Can't be bothered to read the article, but the headline suggests Adams knows exactly what it is all about.


The headline seems to be conflating the 6 days of violence in Londonderry/Derry with the violence in Belfast. Whereas other articles mentioned above seem to suggest that whilst the former are being conducted by dissident republicans the latter are probably being carried out by the loyalist UVF. But I'd agree that Gerry Adams probably knows that he is hated by the UVF - the only question being as to timing ie why bomb his home now.

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Re: Boris resigns

#152330

Postby BobbyD » July 14th, 2018, 2:50 pm

Nimrod103 wrote:I would guess this attack is more likely to have been from dissident republicans.


Bloods or Crips it rather suggests that 'Ireland has moved on' is a touch overoptimistic, as does lobbing petrol bombs at the police...

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Re: Boris resigns

#152379

Postby gryffron » July 14th, 2018, 11:20 pm

Great. So these dissident republicans should be delighted if brexit results in the GFA being binned.

Or maybe not. But the contradiction does show yet another thread of Project Fear is total rubbish.

Gryff


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