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Milkshakes

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TheMotorcycleBoy
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Re: Milkshakes

#224143

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » May 24th, 2019, 8:01 am

I agree with Spet. There have been a few "milkshake a right winger" stunts pulled recently. I encourage them all. The milkshakers are expressing complete disgust at people who are deliberately manipulating support from, and as such are seen to encourage, vile racist, homophobic and misogynistic elements. These people seem to be hell bent on rolling back years of liberal progress that we've made over here in the UK.

Take Carl Benjamin for instance. He has recently been milkshaked. He also publicly jokes about raping Jess Phillips.

What would people here like to do to CB if he joked about raping their partner or daughter? Defend his rights or milkshake him?

Matt

kiloran
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Re: Milkshakes

#224145

Postby kiloran » May 24th, 2019, 8:33 am

TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:Take Carl Benjamin for instance. He has recently been milkshaked. He also publicly jokes about raping Jess Phillips.
What would people here like to do to CB if he joked about raping their partner or daughter? Defend his rights or milkshake him?
Matt

I would like to milkshake him, throw a brick through his window, hang him upside-down, naked, from a tree, you name it.
But that's what I'd like to do, and that would stay within my mind. Unspoken.

I practice, I would stay within the law, no question. And milkshaking, while amusing at a schoolboy level, is not within the law.

--kiloran

Howyoudoin
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Re: Milkshakes

#224150

Postby Howyoudoin » May 24th, 2019, 9:07 am

kiloran wrote:
TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:Take Carl Benjamin for instance. He has recently been milkshaked. He also publicly jokes about raping Jess Phillips.
What would people here like to do to CB if he joked about raping their partner or daughter? Defend his rights or milkshake him?
Matt

I would like to milkshake him, throw a brick through his window, hang him upside-down, naked, from a tree, you name it.
But that's what I'd like to do, and that would stay within my mind. Unspoken.

I practice, I would stay within the law, no question. And milkshaking, while amusing at a schoolboy level, is not within the law.

--kiloran


Finally, a sensible response to infantile and irresponsible incitements to violence.

HYD

vrdiver
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Re: Milkshakes

#224155

Postby vrdiver » May 24th, 2019, 9:29 am

It seems to be the age-old dilemma; people who profess a love of democracy and the right to free speech getting upset when other people use those very rights to say disagreeable things.

What happened to "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" ?

To silence them is just PC, in that it shuts down any discussion on the premise that "good people don't think like that", rather than risking that there might be any merit in what that person is saying.

For the record, I struggle to think of anything NF says that I agree with, but that doesn't mean I want him egged, milkshaked or otherwise assaulted: I want his arguments to be shown to be small-minded, selfish and not acceptable here, but along with that, I want any legitimate concerns he raises to be freely discussed without fear of censorship or recrimination.

Closing him down through intimidation just allows his ideas to fester in the dark recesses of his supporters' minds. It may feel good, or even look humorous, but how do you change minds if you don't even recognise their existence?

VRD

chas49
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Re: Milkshakes

#224157

Postby chas49 » May 24th, 2019, 9:34 am

kiloran wrote:
TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:Take Carl Benjamin for instance. He has recently been milkshaked. He also publicly jokes about raping Jess Phillips.
What would people here like to do to CB if he joked about raping their partner or daughter? Defend his rights or milkshake him?
Matt

I would like to milkshake him, throw a brick through his window, hang him upside-down, naked, from a tree, you name it.
But that's what I'd like to do, and that would stay within my mind. Unspoken.

I practice, I would stay within the law, no question. And milkshaking, while amusing at a schoolboy level, is not within the law.

--kiloran


Exactly.

This is similar to what Jack Monroe said on This Week last night - paraphrasing : "I understand why some people would want to do that, but I do not condone throwing (anything) at people - it's childish"

TheMotorcycleBoy
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Re: Milkshakes

#224174

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » May 24th, 2019, 10:29 am

vrdiver wrote:Closing him down through intimidation just allows his ideas to fester in the dark recesses of his supporters' minds. It may feel good, or even look humorous, but how do you change minds if you don't even recognise their existence?

I agree. It's a tough one to call.

My problem is that when people are "not actively discouraged" from dissemination of extreme views, it tends to disempower those minorities who are at the butt end of the extreme views.

For instance Boris Johnson's remarks about burkha wearing muslim women. Comparing them to letter boxes and bank robbers. When a public figure is able to get away with such vile remarks to this segment of society, then, at least in my opinion, the affected section are disempowered.

Now when such individuals e.g. the burkha wearer attempts to make a statement of rights, she is perceived from a disadvantaged position, since a more powerful and visible person has been witnessed as belittling them. That's why I actually think it's a difficult position (freedom of speech and freedom of expression) to assess.

Matt

BobbyD
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Re: Milkshakes

#224193

Postby BobbyD » May 24th, 2019, 11:24 am

kiloran wrote:
TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:Take Carl Benjamin for instance. He has recently been milkshaked. He also publicly jokes about raping Jess Phillips.
What would people here like to do to CB if he joked about raping their partner or daughter? Defend his rights or milkshake him?
Matt

I would like to milkshake him, throw a brick through his window, hang him upside-down, naked, from a tree, you name it.
But that's what I'd like to do, and that would stay within my mind. Unspoken.

I practice, I would stay within the law, no question. And milkshaking, while amusing at a schoolboy level, is not within the law.

--kiloran


Standing next to his bus eating a McDonalds is though....

vrdiver
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Re: Milkshakes

#224195

Postby vrdiver » May 24th, 2019, 11:37 am

TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:I actually think it's a difficult position (freedom of speech and freedom of expression) to assess.

That is where we disagree; I think freedom of speech is key to freedom of everything else because it is the freedom to express our minds.

Read "George Orwell's 1984" for a good example of what happens when different points of view are repressed and everything is aligned to the PC view of the world. We, as humans, will continue to have dark, disgusting, murky thoughts. It's how we deal with them that makes us human.

Rather than look for a philosopher's quote, I refer you to Kiloran's post above...

VRD

TheMotorcycleBoy
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Re: Milkshakes

#224199

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » May 24th, 2019, 12:16 pm

vrdiver wrote:
TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:I actually think it's a difficult position (freedom of speech and freedom of expression) to assess.

That is where we disagree; I think freedom of speech is key to freedom of everything else because it is the freedom to express our minds.

Read "George Orwell's 1984" for a good example of what happens when different points of view are repressed and everything is aligned to the PC view of the world. We, as humans, will continue to have dark, disgusting, murky thoughts. It's how we deal with them that makes us human.

Rather than look for a philosopher's quote, I refer you to Kiloran's post above...

VRD

I've read Orwells "Animal Farm" and "1984". Good books.

We are at war with EastAsia, we have always been at war with EastAsia.

ReformedCharacter
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Re: Milkshakes

#224202

Postby ReformedCharacter » May 24th, 2019, 12:25 pm

TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:I've read Orwells "Animal Farm" and "1984". Good books.

We are at war with EastAsia, we have always been at war with EastAsia.

You might enjoy the more autobiographical 'Down and out in Paris and London' too.

RC

TheMotorcycleBoy
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Re: Milkshakes

#224206

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » May 24th, 2019, 12:40 pm

We are defending Freedom of Speech. Which I struggle to disagree with, in all it's forms.

What mechanisms exist for those, who either can't speak (they are born mute, or are inarticulate) or can speak but aren't listened to? Are they allowed milkshakes?

dionaeamuscipula
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Re: Milkshakes

#224207

Postby dionaeamuscipula » May 24th, 2019, 12:44 pm

TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:We are defending Freedom of Speech. Which I struggle to disagree with, in all it's forms.

What mechanisms exist for those, who either can't speak (they are born mute, or are inarticulate) or can speak but aren't listened to? Are they allowed milkshakes?

No. HTH

DM

BobbyD
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Re: Milkshakes

#224208

Postby BobbyD » May 24th, 2019, 12:48 pm

TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:We are defending Freedom of Speech.


I've yet to meet anybody who believed in absolute freedom speech, at which point you are simply agreeing on common cultural boundaries up to which speech should be protected. Political untruths, threats, slander, incitement to commit criminal acts, and racial abuse are all forms of speech.

Howyoudoin
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Re: Milkshakes

#224210

Postby Howyoudoin » May 24th, 2019, 12:50 pm

TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:We are defending Freedom of Speech. Which I struggle to disagree with, in all it's forms.

What mechanisms exist for those, who either can't speak (they are born mute, or are inarticulate) or can speak but aren't listened to? Are they allowed milkshakes?


You appear to be saying that some people should be above the law.

That is a dangerous view and should not be encouraged.

HYD

XFool
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Re: Milkshakes

#224230

Postby XFool » May 24th, 2019, 2:13 pm

vrdiver wrote:It seems to be the age-old dilemma; people who profess a love of democracy and the right to free speech getting upset when other people use those very rights to say disagreeable things.

What happened to "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" ?

Brexit? (Or 'populism'?)

vrdiver wrote:For the record, I struggle to think of anything NF says that I agree with, but that doesn't mean I want him egged, milkshaked or otherwise assaulted: I want his arguments to be shown to be small-minded, selfish and not acceptable here, but along with that, I want any legitimate concerns he raises to be freely discussed without fear of censorship or recrimination.

Closing him down through intimidation just allows his ideas to fester in the dark recesses of his supporters' minds. It may feel good, or even look humorous, but how do you change minds if you don't even recognise their existence?

At the risk of being accused of self promotion, have you seen this thread? - viewtopic.php?p=224123#p224123

TheMotorcycleBoy
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Re: Milkshakes

#224893

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » May 28th, 2019, 9:21 am

Howyoudoin wrote:
TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:We are defending Freedom of Speech. Which I struggle to disagree with, in all it's forms.

What mechanisms exist for those, who either can't speak (they are born mute, or are inarticulate) or can speak but aren't listened to? Are they allowed milkshakes?


You appear to be saying that some people should be above the law.

Not really. I'm just curious about the level of representation for those who are disempowered in our society. If they don't have a legal framework for their views to be recognised then I claim something in our society is not ideal. I'm not going to state that it's the "law that's broken" since I'm not a lawyer and don't want a lengthy debate on terminology.

My view is that certain elements feel under represented in our society - they either don't have a political platform or a youtube following and aren't a good public speaker. Whilst milkshake throwing is not the best mechanism of communication, it's many miles away from murder.

Matt


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