Debt Collector Letter Received Re PPI

[TheMotorcycleBoy]

Hi all,

Mel here, not Matt!

Wondering if any of you have any advice on the following........

So a few years back, my bank wrote to me informing me that I may have had PPI in the past, and that if I believed that I had, then to fill in and return the enclosed forms to them. Because I didn't think that I had ever actually had any PPI, I didn't return the forms. Fast forward to August 2019, the PPI deadline was looming and a family member had recently received a PPI refund payment that they didn't think they would be eligible for, but apparently they were, so received a smallish sum of money. I saw an advert somewhere shortly after this and thought "why not, it's worth a try", so filled in an online form and then received no more than a text message telling me that they were looking into my claim.

I never heard a thing back from them, but then in July of this year, I received a letter from my bank informing me that they were issuing me a payment for mis-sold PPI and that I would receive the money into my account within 28 days, which I did receive.

There had been no correspondence from the original people that were looking into my claim (Ingenious Legal), so I'd just assumed that the letter from the bank informing me of the refund was simply because they'd decided I had indeed been mis-sold the PPI.

Fast forward again to yesterday, and I receive (completely out of the blue) a letter from a debt collection company (AJJB Law) informing me that I had an outstanding amount payable and that I needed to pay immediately to avoid further action and possibly receiving a CCJ. At first, myself and Matt thought this was some kind of scam (since there was no mention of what the outstanding payment was for and I have no store cards, credit or outstanding utility bills etc.), so searched online to find a contact number for AJJB Law, rather than just phoning the number on the letter. Upon phoning them, I was then told it was a charge payable to Ingenious Legal for my PPI claim. I then got in touch with Ingenious Legal and told them that I had never received any correspondence from them, other than the original text telling me that they were looking into my claim. They never sent me an invoice for their charges, hence why I hadn't paid it!

I have now received the invoice from Ingenious Legal via email, along with a copy of the original application I made (with my electronic signature, like how you'd sign on a digital device with your fingertip when signing for a parcel). They have also provided a copy of the letter which my bank sent to me informing me of the refund I was eligible for.

Does the fact that I signed the document on my phone (rather than an actual signed hard copy of a contract) make this a legally binding agreement? I'm not trying to get out of paying Ingenious Legal for getting me a PPI refund that I really didn't expect I'd ever had, but it all seems a bit unorthodox that they did not send me a hard copy of the contract to sign, never sent me an invoice for their services and have now passed it on to a debt collector. Looking at the invoice that I managed to get them to send me today (dated 29/07/20) and the letter I received yesterday from AJJB Law, I have already incurred an additional charge of £50 for not paying something I knew nothing of! It also seems odd that Ingenious Legal didn't send me any reminders for the unpaid invoice - I would expect to be sent the original invoice, then maybe a reminder, followed by a recorded, signed for letter about the unpaid invoice, not for me to hear nothing whatsoever until receiving this letter informing me that I've got debt collectors on my back! Also, would it be usual for a company to pass on the debt to someone else to deal with so quickly at a possible loss to themselves? Not even 3 months have passed between the invoice date and the letter from AJJB Law.

Many thanks in advance for any advice or help offered!

Mel

[Avantegarde]

They sound like a bunch of shysters, don't they? I assume their argument is that you entered into a contract which gave them a right to, say, 20% of your "winnings" if they were successful. If so, the question is simple - what did you actually sign, electronically or otherwise? If it clearly said they were entitled to a cut, and that by signing you agreed to their terms and conditions, you may have no option but to pay up. If the thing you signed gave them no such right, and merely allowed them to make an enquiry on your behalf (for instance) then I'd suggest they have no leg to stand on. I'd tell them to stuff their penalty fee, by the way, as your apparent failure to pay seems to be entirely their fault.

[johnhemming]

You can enter into a contract without anything being in writing. The fact that things are written down and involve some form of signature is proof both as to the terms of a contract and that you have agreed to one. Hence it depends really on what the contact says.

[TheMotorcycleBoy]

Hi and thanks for replying!

How do either of you feel about the fact that Ingenious Legal have passed on the debt to AJJB Law so quickly? Is it common for a debt to be passed on so quickly to a debt collection agency? There has barely been 3 months since the date of the (never received) invoice until they decided to pass me onto someone else. Surely they would have lost money in doing this? I'm assuming that Ingenious Legal 'sold' the debt onto AJJB at a lesser value than what is owed. Just doesn't make sense. Why would anyone not send out a reminder or two? I can accept the possibility that the original invoice may have gone astray in the post, but if someone owed me money, after sending out the initial invoice and at least one reminder, I would then send a letter using recorded delivery to be sure that the recipient had received it.

Yes, I electronically signed to give my consent to paying them a commission in the event that I received something back, but to have no communication from them whatsoever since that first text telling me that they would look into it seems very odd and not at all professional on their part. As I believed that the refund had come about directly from the bank, why would I think that it had anything to do with the original application I made? If I'd had any communication from them, then I would have expected to pay their commission.

[Avantegarde]

Hi and thanks for replying!

How do either of you feel about the fact that Ingenious Legal have passed on the debt to AJJB Law so quickly? Is it common for a debt to be passed on so quickly to a debt collection agency? There has barely been 3 months since the date of the (never received) invoice until they decided to pass me onto someone else. Surely they would have lost money in doing this? I'm assuming that Ingenious Legal 'sold' the debt onto AJJB at a lesser value than what is owed. Just doesn't make sense. Why would anyone not send out a reminder or two? I can accept the possibility that the original invoice may have gone astray in the post, but if someone owed me money, after sending out the initial invoice and at least one reminder, I would then send a letter using recorded delivery to be sure that the recipient had received it.

Yes, I electronically signed to give my consent to paying them a commission in the event that I received something back, but to have no communication from them whatsoever since that first text telling me that they would look into it seems very odd and not at all professional on their part. As I believed that the refund had come about directly from the bank, why would I think that it had anything to do with the original application I made? If I'd had any communication from them, then I would have expected to pay their commission.

I can't explain their business practices but they do indeed sound like shysters. In your shoes, I'd write to Ingenious, explaining the situation politely and briefly in a to-the-point fashion, making it clear you hold them entirely responsible for their failure to keep you informed or even ask for their bill to be settled, and enclosing a cheque for the sum you owe. I would ignore the "penalty fee".

[Clitheroekid]

It's deeply depressing that Ingenious Legal are actually a firm of solicitors, who appear to have jumped on the PPI bandwagon along with many other rather unsavoury characters.

However, as solicitors they are bound by professional rules. One of those rule says that any firm of solicitors must provide a new client with a client care letter, setting out the terms of their engagement, explaining how charges are made and so on. They also, of course, have to go through the various anti money laundering processes, establishing identity etc.

It would seem rather unlikely that this could all have been done with such limited communication as you mention.

Realistically, I'd need to look at the form you said you sent back, but even if it was signing up to use their services they would have had to give you notice of your rights to cancel within 14 days of signing up. If they failed to do so then any alleged contract is potentially unenforceable.

Looking at the invoice that I managed to get them to send me today (dated 29/07/20) and the letter I received yesterday from AJJB Law, I have already incurred an additional charge of £50 for not paying something I knew nothing of!

Who has attempted to impose the £50 charge? If you have had no correspondence with IL and have never received the invoice till yesterday they can't impose a charge. And AJJB Law have no power to do so as you're a private individual, not a business.

I'd recommend sending a Subject Access Request to IL, requesting a complete copy of your file. There's more information here - https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights ... ss-request

So far as AJJB Law are concerned, they are obliged to comply with the Debt Collection Protocol. This means that they must send you a full and detailed letter explaining how the claim arose and sending copies of any relevant documents - in the case they would have to send you a copy of the alleged contract. There's a fuller explanation here - https://www.nationaldebtline.org/EW/fac ... tocol.aspx

Did they send you such a letter?

[TheMotorcycleBoy]

Thank you so much everyone!

I did receive full terms and conditions from Ingenious, along with detailed information regarding their charges etc (as this was in the part I signed), and they did state that there was a 14 day cooling off period. I would imagine that they managed to confirm my identity due to the fact that I gave them my full name, address (and all past addresses where I may have been living when I'd taken out any bank loans), DOB etc, so I don't think there's much I could argue with Ingenious over there.

The letter from AJJB didn't have any breakdown at all to indicate what the amount was for - it was simply telling me the amount owing, not even stating who the debt was originally owed to, just the amount, here's how to pay us, and if you don't pay up, we'll be taking further action - CCJ and further charges etc.

I have now got in touch with Ingenious Legal informing them that I am prepared to pay the outstanding debt to them but that I am not willing to pay the extra £50 charge, since the fact that I had not already paid what I owed them was entirely their fault for not issuing me with the invoice at the time (which was also confirmed by the person I spoke to at Ingenious when I called upon receiving the letter from AJJB).

Anyway, I'm hoping that this will be accepted by them with no further action taken and I can move on!

Thanks again to you all for taking the time to help

Mel

[scrumpyjack]

When you send the money, tell them 'it is in full and final settlement'

[TheMotorcycleBoy]

When you send the money, tell them 'it is in full and final settlement'

I've contacted them this evening asking them to confirm that upon receiving my payment, my account will be closed with no further action to be taken by them or AJJB. But yes, when I send payment, I will also include your suggestion, thank you

[stevensfo]

Thank you so much everyone!

I did receive full terms and conditions from Ingenious, along with detailed information regarding their charges etc (as this was in the part I signed), and they did state that there was a 14 day cooling off period. I would imagine that they managed to confirm my identity due to the fact that I gave them my full name, address (and all past addresses where I may have been living when I'd taken out any bank loans), DOB etc, so I don't think there's much I could argue with Ingenious over there.

The letter from AJJB didn't have any breakdown at all to indicate what the amount was for - it was simply telling me the amount owing, not even stating who the debt was originally owed to, just the amount, here's how to pay us, and if you don't pay up, we'll be taking further action - CCJ and further charges etc.

I have now got in touch with Ingenious Legal informing them that I am prepared to pay the outstanding debt to them but that I am not willing to pay the extra £50 charge, since the fact that I had not already paid what I owed them was entirely their fault for not issuing me with the invoice at the time (which was also confirmed by the person I spoke to at Ingenious when I called upon receiving the letter from AJJB).

Anyway, I'm hoping that this will be accepted by them with no further action taken and I can move on!

Thanks again to you all for taking the time to help

Mel

It still shocks me that some companies are allowed to get away with this sort of behaviour. Thank God for TLF! My late father was brilliant at this sort of thing and I wish I'd inherited his talent for writing letters. He would probably have carefully listed every rule bent, broken or ignored by the solicitors and debt collectors, a list of time he'd spent pursuing it (with his charge per hour) then the details of stress, harassment etc, with a hefty invoice for the amount 'they' owed him! He did this once with British Gas and got a cheque from them. Another time, I think a firm took him to the small claims court and were made to cringe when he produced all the documentation proving their complete incompetence. One reason why I never do anything over the phone. Only email or letter. Oh well, we can only dream.

Steve

[TheMotorcycleBoy]

It still shocks me that some companies are allowed to get away with this sort of behaviour. Thank God for TLF! My late father was brilliant at this sort of thing and I wish I'd inherited his talent for writing letters. He would probably have carefully listed every rule bent, broken or ignored by the solicitors and debt collectors, a list of time he'd spent pursuing it (with his charge per hour) then the details of stress, harassment etc, with a hefty invoice for the amount 'they' owed him! He did this once with British Gas and got a cheque from them. Another time, I think a firm took him to the small claims court and were made to cringe when he produced all the documentation proving their complete incompetence. One reason why I never do anything over the phone. Only email or letter. Oh well, we can only dream.

Steve

It sounds like your father was an awesome guy!

It's always great when you can ask for help with these things and get some great answers and help with what to say etc. I don't mind doing the odd bit over the phone, but always try to get it confirmed in writing too, that way they can't wriggle out of it that easily!

Mel